very strange jian

josh stout · 10th March 2008, 04:41 PM

I saw this one go up from a dealer who mixes real things with fake, and was intrigued. It is a form of jian I have never seen before, which automatically makes me suspicious, but the age looked genuine. I asked some knowledgeable friends about it, and they say it is not a fake, but rather a form of not uncommon Southern Chinese Republican jian with a deliberately damaged blade. The cuts were made for decoration during the period where an old chang jian was considered worthless and in need of some extra decoration. I don't think any modern dealer would do such a thing.

Anyway, it a new type for me, and thought some others should see it before the ebay pictures disappear.
Josh

http://cgi.ebay.com/Authentic-Antiqu...QQcmdZViewItem

Gavin Nugent · 11th March 2008, 12:19 AM

You know, one question that has always plagued me, with the hundreds and hundreds of thousands of Chinese soldiers that have walked the earth in the last 1000years why are their arms so scarce in the market place?

I first started viewing this inventory some many years ago now and I see the same things over and over and never so much as a scabbard or a scabbard fitting even? I consider that a little strange on it's own merit.

When in doubt, trust your own instincts I guess. The facts are, I don't think any of us will really know what is true and what is not as there is no "bible that I know of that we can refer to from the centuries past and I know I wasn't there when all these old weapons were made all those years ago. I guess what we can do as a collective is share points of reference we have in books or our private collections and that of museums and just see what we can come up with in our own studies. Also, are all these 1000+ items of inventory really in Hong Kong? I will always remain a sceptic until there is such evidence that I cannot ignore to say that it is all ok. I mean the prices offered of are not really bank breaking are they, but that in it'self has two sides, who would sell an original that cheap so often or who would sell an excellent copy with so many hours spent on it so cheap?

My spider senses are tingling.

Gav

Mark · 11th March 2008, 04:12 PM

Two reasons for the scarcity might be (a) destruction during the Cultural Revolution, and (b) the ban on exporting antiques from China. I imagine that the numbers of true antique weapons in Hong Kong is pretty low, so they would have to come from the mainland.

josh stout · 11th March 2008, 06:02 PM

Over the years of watching this particular seller, my conclusion is that what you see is a mixture of outright fakes, mostly Japanese things or chang jian for the true suckers, composite pieces of mixed origin, and antiques of low worth such as this one. I have had mixed results with the last category. Some ordinary looking pieces turn out to have fantastic pattern welding when put in some vinegar, and some nice looking things end up with edges and tips ground flat, ugly pits where brass stars were, and the occasional cracked blade. Most of the low worth antiques would cost about $100 in mainland China and he charges $135 to make a little profit. I doubt there is time for careful inspection of each piece so the good and the bad are all lumped together.

Village made weapons almost never have a scabbard.

I did not bid on the jian I posted because the blade was so compromised it could easily break. You can see the edge plate and folding pretty easily though, which is what made me curious enough to ask some friends in Beijing who are quite knowledgeable collector/dealers. They assured me the sword was genuine and of a recognizable type.

My friends often have a similar inventory but of the next level up in quality or scarcity value plus I don't have to put up with cracked blades, so I rarely bid on eBay anymore. These village made things are not scarce at all, just not seen in the US much. What Western collectors look for are long blades with complete fittings. I almost never see such things for sale. They are truly rare these days and have reached a high enough value that the fakes are very good.

I prefer to look for interesting/unusual village made things where the quality is all in the blade.

I have asked my friends to look for one of these southern chang jian without damage. I will post it if they ever find one.
Josh

10th March 2008, 04:41 PM	#1
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	very strange jian I saw this one go up from a dealer who mixes real things with fake, and was intrigued. It is a form of jian I have never seen before, which automatically makes me suspicious, but the age looked genuine. I asked some knowledgeable friends about it, and they say it is not a fake, but rather a form of not uncommon Southern Chinese Republican jian with a deliberately damaged blade. The cuts were made for decoration during the period where an old chang jian was considered worthless and in need of some extra decoration. I don't think any modern dealer would do such a thing. Anyway, it a new type for me, and thought some others should see it before the ebay pictures disappear. Josh http://cgi.ebay.com/Authentic-Antiqu...QQcmdZViewItem

11th March 2008, 12:19 AM	#2
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Hmmm You know, one question that has always plagued me, with the hundreds and hundreds of thousands of Chinese soldiers that have walked the earth in the last 1000years why are their arms so scarce in the market place? I first started viewing this inventory some many years ago now and I see the same things over and over and never so much as a scabbard or a scabbard fitting even? I consider that a little strange on it's own merit. When in doubt, trust your own instincts I guess. The facts are, I don't think any of us will really know what is true and what is not as there is no "bible that I know of that we can refer to from the centuries past and I know I wasn't there when all these old weapons were made all those years ago. I guess what we can do as a collective is share points of reference we have in books or our private collections and that of museums and just see what we can come up with in our own studies. Also, are all these 1000+ items of inventory really in Hong Kong? I will always remain a sceptic until there is such evidence that I cannot ignore to say that it is all ok. I mean the prices offered of are not really bank breaking are they, but that in it'self has two sides, who would sell an original that cheap so often or who would sell an excellent copy with so many hours spent on it so cheap? My spider senses are tingling. Gav

11th March 2008, 04:12 PM	#3
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Two reasons for the scarcity might be (a) destruction during the Cultural Revolution, and (b) the ban on exporting antiques from China. I imagine that the numbers of true antique weapons in Hong Kong is pretty low, so they would have to come from the mainland.

11th March 2008, 06:02 PM	#4
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	Over the years of watching this particular seller, my conclusion is that what you see is a mixture of outright fakes, mostly Japanese things or chang jian for the true suckers, composite pieces of mixed origin, and antiques of low worth such as this one. I have had mixed results with the last category. Some ordinary looking pieces turn out to have fantastic pattern welding when put in some vinegar, and some nice looking things end up with edges and tips ground flat, ugly pits where brass stars were, and the occasional cracked blade. Most of the low worth antiques would cost about $100 in mainland China and he charges $135 to make a little profit. I doubt there is time for careful inspection of each piece so the good and the bad are all lumped together. Village made weapons almost never have a scabbard. I did not bid on the jian I posted because the blade was so compromised it could easily break. You can see the edge plate and folding pretty easily though, which is what made me curious enough to ask some friends in Beijing who are quite knowledgeable collector/dealers. They assured me the sword was genuine and of a recognizable type. My friends often have a similar inventory but of the next level up in quality or scarcity value plus I don't have to put up with cracked blades, so I rarely bid on eBay anymore. These village made things are not scarce at all, just not seen in the US much. What Western collectors look for are long blades with complete fittings. I almost never see such things for sale. They are truly rare these days and have reached a high enough value that the fakes are very good. I prefer to look for interesting/unusual village made things where the quality is all in the blade. I have asked my friends to look for one of these southern chang jian without damage. I will post it if they ever find one. Josh