Unusual Hmong musket

[Cerjak]

I’m looking since a very long time for a Hmong Musket and at last I found a very nice and unusual one.
Total length is about 76 cm the bore is about 30 cal or slightly over 7mm
It ‘s look like a gun made for a children or small hunter ?
Any comment on it will be welcome.

Best
Cerjak

[Cerjak]

more pic

[BANDOOK]

GREETINGS CERJAK
HERE IS MINE AND SOME INFORMATION FOR YOU ABOUT THEM,I FIND THEM VERY PRIMITIVE AND UNUSUAL,CHEERS

MONKEY GUNS HMONG TRIBE,NORTHERN LAOS AND VIETNAM
Mao tribe guns -- Antique Laos Mao or Hmung musket

Recovered from Northern Laos. Areas accessable only by helicopter or weeks of hiking. Used mostly for hunting. These were acquired by original owner while working for the CIA in Laos/Thailand. these guns were in use as late 70s in the opium growing areas of northeast Laos. Muskets similar to these were also used by the Montnard tribes in Western South Vietnam.
Octagonal barrel tapering to muzzle,1300 mm long and longer one is 1600 mm,bore approx. 30 caliber,attached to stock with 7-8 aluminium barrel bands,

[BANDOOK]

A PART OF THE MONKETS TAIL IS SEEN HERE WHICH IS LIKE A TALISMAN OBJECT FOR THE TRIBE AS MONKEY MEAT IS A DELICASY
I LIKE THE POWDER FLASK AND GOES WELL AND MAKES IT COMPLETE
BEST REGARDS RAJESH

[Cerjak]

Hi Bandook

Thank you for you comment and pictures from your 2 nice exemplars.
This gun had been bring back by the father of the previous owner before the end of the French protectorate of Laos. I can see from the stock length that the barrel is in his original size .
I have already seen one similar short exemplar but they are definitely not common in this size
It has a nice wood patina who attest a real age for this piece ,my guess is late 19 th century or early 20 th century.
If you have the possibility it would be great to see some close pictures from your muskets ( lock and stock )
Best
CERJAK

[Cerjak]

more exemplar found from the net.

I ‘m astonish that they is not much literature about this type of musket. Even I did not find this musket in the George Cameron Stone's A Glossary .

[ward]

These are always interesting guns. You will find them with barrel bands made of brass, cooper, silver, and aluminum. They are not rifled. Some of the barrels will have Chinese manufacturing marks. I have a ammunition set that contains m16 bullets that were recovered to use in this gun, also Thai black powder caps that were used in the pan. These are still used in that part of the world I have been told. The detachable lock is fascinating in its simplicity. Dating these things are difficult. 1800-1990.

[trenchwarfare]

Very nice gun. I've not seen one this small. I have four, and the two smallest ones are about 120CM. They are both dainty, compared to the other two. I agree, it was made for a very small statured person. Even the pistol grip is small. The action, however is normal size. Information on these, is very hard to find. The only book reference I know of is in "Stone". Most have/had, a Monkey hide frizzen cover. One of mine has a priming flask, and one, has a complete compliment of "possibles". Including a silver priming flask, with silver chain. Thanks for posting.

[Cerjak]

Hi trenchwarfare
Very nice collection !
It seems you have found the factory It has took me 2 years to find one and you have 4 units

Best

Cerjak

[ward]

These guns are relatively common in usa. I have owned about 15 or so thru the years. They are interesting guns. Nice to see others like them.

[trenchwarfare]

Maybe it's a regional thing, but I don't find them to be common at all. I own four, of the six I've seen. Two were priced over my head. Of the six, Only three were seen locally. (one at a show in Mississippi) The others were found online. My first one, was a gift, from my wife's grandfather. He flew "Spook" missions in Southeast Asia. Traded who knows what, to a CIA type for it. Sad thing is, the guy also had a pair of pistols! They were wearing a hair-on, water buffalo hide western style holster rig. The Colonel could have traded for them as well, but didn't.

[ward]

I am a dealer so I tend to have a few more items go thru my hands. I generally see a couple of these at most major shows in usa. I am not saying there are dozens at each show.

[Jim McDougall]

Cerjak, these are really intriguing guns as they have a curious 'ancient' kind of mystique about them, and the fact that they were still in use in the 60s and 70s seems amazing. These were remarkably little known of course until broad exposure to them with the Montagnard tribes during Viet Nam.

There actually is a reference to them in Stone under 'matchlock', in which #4 shown is a Tonkin example of these anachronistic guns. Apparently these had been in use from much earlier French Indo-China times and with Dutch, Portuguese and Chinese influences eventually the flintlock mechanism was also used.

In my opinion one of the foremost authorities on these and related weapons of these regions is Philip Tom, who wrote "Firearms and Artillery in Pre Colonial Viet Nam" for Seven Stars Trading Co. in 1999 (accessible online).
It seems it is suggested that guns similar to yours may be of origin in the Hue region, but I cannot say that for certain as more detail comparing elements would be required.

These are indeed hard to date accurately as they are composed of constantly recycled components which have been present and changed hands through many generations in these regions and with various groups.

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Cerjak, these are really intriguing guns as they have a curious 'ancient' kind of mystique about them, and the fact that they were still in use in the 60s and 70s seems amazing. These were remarkably little known of course until broad exposure to them with the Montagnard tribes during Viet Nam.

There actually is a reference to them in Stone under 'matchlock', in which #4 shown is a Tonkin example of these anachronistic guns. Apparently these had been in use from much earlier French Indo-China times and with Dutch, Portuguese and Chinese influences eventually the flintlock mechanism was also used.

In my opinion one of the foremost authorities on these and related weapons of these regions is Philip Tom, who wrote "Firearms and Artillery in Pre Colonial Viet Nam" for Seven Stars Trading Co. in 1999 (accessible online).
It seems it is suggested that guns similar to yours may be of origin in the Hue region, but I cannot say that for certain as more detail comparing elements would be required.

These are indeed hard to date accurately as they are composed of constantly recycled components which have been present and changed hands through many generations in these regions and with various groups.

Thank you Jim
I didn't saw it because I was looking for this particular "pistol grip" stock .
Best

Jean-Luc

[ward]

what I would be curious to see is the predecessor of this lock. Or was this completely a local form. I have never seen anything similar but I would not mind being surprised.

[nthao]

Where did you manage to find it, if you don't mind me asking? I have been looking for one for the past few years...with no luck Willing to pay a pretty penny, but all the auctions I have seen online are several years old...hence why I am also going back to this thread after I few years haha.

[Ian]

nthao:

You might try private messaging or emailing Cerjak also. I have not seen him online for a while.

Ian.

[Ren Ren]

Such guns sometimes appear in the chronicles of the Vietnamese police. They are confiscated from poachers in the northwest of the country. Hunting for rare species of animals is a painful topic for those places

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Ren Ren

Such guns sometimes appear in the chronicles of the Vietnamese police. They are confiscated from poachers in the northwest of the country. Hunting for rare species of animals is a painful topic for those places

Rare animals -- have you been to the famous Bo Tong Xeo Restaurant in Saigon? They are known for serving all kinds of wild game, deliciously prepared of course. The region reminds me of Louisiana and it's not just the climate -- folks will shoot and eat practically anything that walks, flies, or swims and when they're done cooking it, boy is it delicious!

[Ren Ren]

I love Vietnamese food but I have never been to this wonderful restaurant.

I think hunting for food is not the biggest part of the problem. Animals are killed for use in traditional medicine and magic (which are often the same thing). If I'm not mistaken, a piece of gibbon fur is suspended from Cerjak's Musket. Gibbons are sacrificed for hundreds of years when it is required to escape from adversity (for example, during a lunar and solar eclipse).

Another part of the problem is that people in the mountains have no other source of income. The government follows the path of prohibitions, but at the same time does not offer alternative ways for a dignified existence.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Ren Ren

I love Vietnamese food but I have never been to this wonderful restaurant.

I think hunting for food is not the biggest part of the problem. Animals are killed for use in traditional medicine and magic (which are often the same thing). If I'm not mistaken, a piece of gibbon fur is suspended from Cerjak's Musket. Gibbons are sacrificed for hundreds of years when it is required to escape from adversity (for example, during a lunar and solar eclipse).

Another part of the problem is that people in the mountains have no other source of income. The government follows the path of prohibitions, but at the same time does not offer alternative ways for a dignified existence.

I agree with you entirely. I don't object to hunting for sport or to cull herds to keep the ecosystem in balance, but the problem in many places is that it's unregulated or poorly managed, sometimes as a part of overall corruption or for gross economic motives. Then it becomes a problem. Same applies to commercial fishing, the toll taken on the bluefin tuna population (just one example) to satisfy a cultural need and keep sushi bars in operation is unpardonable.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Ren Ren

Gibbons are sacrificed for hundreds of years when it is required to escape from adversity (for example, during a lunar and solar eclipse).

Interesting point as regarding the talismanic or spiritual dimension to animals species. Gibbons are talented escape artists so a hunter uses a bit of gibbon fur so he might enjoy the same protection. This transcends cultures.

The ancient Romans, like many ancient Mediterranean cultures going back to the Old Testament and perhaps before, sacrificed many kinds of animals during religious rituals. The innards were considered spiritually potent because the anima (life-breath, or "soul") of all animals was said to reside in the gut. Not so different from the Chinese concept of the location of qi, or in modern language we talk about a person being "gutsy" or conversely, "having no guts". This influenced the nature of Roman cuisine; in addition to being a thrifty people with agricultural roots, the spiritual association of internal organs made them highly desirable on the consumer marketplace; butchers would often charge more for these than for the muscle meat which most "modern" urban people greatly prefer. We still see the old preferences still existing in Italian country cooking -- on my last trip to Rome I dined at a wonderful little locanta run by people from Puglia, where the specialty is meats roasted in a wood-fired oven. Their fegato con polmoni (pork liver wrapped in lungs) was out-of-this-world, coupled with a fava bean purée (another staple from ancient Rome) and the regional red wine.

[Cerjak]

an interesting link related to hmong Gun
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oUEWmhdO9I
see also" Un village Hmong vert du Haut Laos - Milieu technique et organisation sociale
Jacques Lemoine fig 8 p 72,p74

[Philip]

Nice to have the native terminology for all the components. Interesting that the artist did not show the flint that ought to be in the hammer for a spark to strike off the frizzen. I have often wondered how a flint could be secured since there is no screw-tightened jaws so hold one, as is the case for just about every other flintlock made and used worldwide.

[Cerjak]

A rifle presented to President Lynndon Johnson -Flintlock rifle, courtesy Lyndon Baines Johnson Presidential Library and Museum, Austin, Texas

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by Philip

Nice to have the native terminology for all the components. Interesting that the artist did not show the flint that ought to be in the hammer for a spark to strike off the frizzen. I have often wondered how a flint could be secured since there is no screw-tightened jaws so hold one, as is the case for just about every other flintlock made and used worldwide.

The flint is probably sealed using a vegetable resin. No one screw is used for the manufacture of this lock and this last can be easily dismounted from the weapon without tools certainly to facilitate the crimping of the flint.

[Cerjak]

lock detail