A riddle just for fun and learning

ariel · 14th March 2016, 04:32 AM

Gentlemen,
Here are 2 short single-edged swords/sabers/ daggers ( you decide).

The upper one has a scabbard, the lower one is "naked".

Who can tell where they are coming from, their names, approximate ages, and what is the single peculiar feature that is common to them?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 14th March 2016, 12:10 PM

Salaams Ariel, Hmm... good question... could it be that the fullers on both weapons are in different places on each face...so as to decrease the weight? Are these Georgian?... Are they Kindjals as opposed to the similar looking Quaderrah of Iran?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

mariusgmioc · 14th March 2016, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Ariel, Hmm... good question... could it be that the fullers on both weapons are in different places on each face...so as to decrease the weight? Are these Georgian?... Are they Kindjals as opposed to the similar looking Quaderrah of Iran?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hello Ibrahiim,

Kindjals/Qamas and Quaddaras are definitely very different weapons, as the Kindjals/Qamas are straight, double edged blades, frequently with asymmetric fullers while Qaddras are single edged, slightly curved sabers.

From this point of view, the longer blade definitely appears to be a Quaddara, while the shorter blade looks more of a poorly crafted hybrid blade, possibly of African origin.

Regards,

Marius

Kubur · 14th March 2016, 12:31 PM

I love to guess.
But I assume, Ariel, that your answser is based on solid arguments and proofs.
If not, I guess that all opinions will be valid...
Maybe the blades are old qaddara or kinjal cut in two pieces? (right in the middle)
One hilt looks like these Sahelian daggers/swords (with copper bands).
The blond horn of the qaddara looks like these Tunisan daggers.
I really don't know!!!
Best,
Kubur

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 14th March 2016, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Hello Ibrahiim,

Kindjals/Qamas and Quaddaras are definitely very different weapons, as the Kindjals/Qamas are straight, double edged blades, frequently with asymmetric fullers while Qaddras are single edged, slightly curved sabers.

From this point of view, the longer blade definitely appears to be a Quaddara, while the shorter blade looks more of a poorly crafted hybrid blade, possibly of African origin.

Regards,

Marius

Salaams mariusgmioc ..Easily mixed up... and it seems related perhaps... I note from Atkinson -swords

Quote."The Qama (“Khama”, “Kama”) short sword, the national weapon of Georgia. The blade is 11 1/4" in length, with 3 fullers. It is double edged and very sharp. The overall length is 17 1/2". Unlike the plainer version, called the Kindjal in Russian, the Qama is decorated, often with hilts and scabbards covered with embossed silver. This Qama(see website and picture below from that) is one such, with a beautiful brushed silver scabbard. The ornamentation includes Georgian traditional decorations done in silver wire designs and niello (a black metallic alloy of sulphur, copper, silver, and usually lead, used as an inlay on engraved metal). The fine filigree and ornate decorations remain in exceptional condition. The well preserved nature of this Qama and its decoration indicate it may have been used in the ceremonies, celebrations and other traditions of the proud people of the Caucasus Mountains of Georgia.

The Qama is the proud possession of a Georgian warrior, symbolizing heroism and dignity. It is thus an insult to Georgians that their hereditary enemies, the Cossacks, were “allowed” to carry the Georgian national sword (in Russian, called a Kindjal). Their grievance remains open to this day.

The Qama and Kindjal probably both evolved from the Roman short sword (gladius) and possibly the Persian quaddara which it resembles".Unquote.

See website http://atkinson-swords.com/collectio...a-georgia.html

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ian · 14th March 2016, 03:24 PM

Thanks for posting a riddle Ariel. I like mysteries.

I'm not sure where these are from, but I would offer the suggestion that each blade looks as though it may be cut down from something longer. The fullers run all the way to the hilt, and in the case of the longer example, the fuller can be seen running under the hilt. (The cross-section of the hilt piece looks like it was made for another weapon also.) That suggests to me that the blade has been cut down and refashioned into a shorter sword/knife.

Ian.

mariusgmioc · 16th March 2016, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams mariusgmioc ..Easily mixed up... and it seems related perhaps... I note from Atkinson -swords

Quote."The Qama (“Khama”, “Kama”) short sword, the national weapon of Georgia. The blade is 11 1/4" in length, with 3 fullers. It is double edged and very sharp. The overall length is 17 1/2". Unlike the plainer version, called the Kindjal in Russian, the Qama is decorated, often with hilts and scabbards covered with embossed silver. This Qama(see website and picture below from that) is one such, with a beautiful brushed silver scabbard. The ornamentation includes Georgian traditional decorations done in silver wire designs and niello (a black metallic alloy of sulphur, copper, silver, and usually lead, used as an inlay on engraved metal). The fine filigree and ornate decorations remain in exceptional condition. The well preserved nature of this Qama and its decoration indicate it may have been used in the ceremonies, celebrations and other traditions of the proud people of the Caucasus Mountains of Georgia.

The Qama is the proud possession of a Georgian warrior, symbolizing heroism and dignity. It is thus an insult to Georgians that their hereditary enemies, the Cossacks, were “allowed” to carry the Georgian national sword (in Russian, called a Kindjal). Their grievance remains open to this day.

The Qama and Kindjal probably both evolved from the Roman short sword (gladius) and possibly the Persian quaddara which it resembles".Unquote.

See website http://atkinson-swords.com/collectio...a-georgia.html

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hello Ibrahiim and thank you for the citation!

Unfortunately, the author is wrong. The Qama and the Kindjal are nothing but two different names for precisely the very same weapon!

Qama is the name in Georgia/Iran/Turkey, while Kindjal is the name in Russia/Armenia/Daghestan.

As with regards to its decoration, the author is again plainly wrong as arguably Kubachi (Daghestan) Kindjals are the most lavishly decorated weapons of this type.

If you show the photo of the sword above to a knowledgeable Russian, he will immediately identify it as a Kindjal. Show it to a Persian and it will clearly be a Qama.

PS: I guess it is pretty much the same like with the Omani Khanjar and with the Yemeni Jambyia.

ALEX · 16th March 2016, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Unfounately, the author is plainly wrong. The Qama and the Kindjal are nothing but two different names for precisely the very same weapon!

Perhaps in linguistical terms, but not in weapons types.
Similarly, many are calling Turkish shamshirs and sabers Kilij, disregarding the features of the blade, hilt, etc. just because Kilij means "sword" in Turkish language, or Saif because it is Arabic word for sword.
Qama is distinctively single edged, and Kindjal is distinctively double edged, not to mention differences in fittings, decorations and origin. Not the same weapon type by any mean.

mariusgmioc · 16th March 2016, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Perhaps in linguistical terms, but not in weapons type terms.
Similarly, many are calling all sabers Kilij, disregarding the features of the blade, hilt, etc. just because it means "sword" in Turkish language, or Saif because it is Arabic word for sword.
Qama is distinctively single bladed, and Kindjal is distinctively double bladed. Not the same weapon type by any mean.

Hello Alex,

While I assume, that you were referring to the number of cutting edges, in your posting, I beg to differ!

To say it directly, you are completely wrong.

Best regards,

Marius

ALEX · 16th March 2016, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Hello Alex,

While I assume, that you were referring to the number of cutting edges, in your posting, I beg to differ!

To say it directly, you are completely wrong.

Best regards,

Marius

Yes, I meant edges of course, I corrected the text.
Marius, is Qama always double edged? And what is the difference between Qama and Qaddara?

mariusgmioc · 16th March 2016, 07:07 PM

[QUOTE=ALEX]

Hello Alex,

The Qama is NOT single edged. The Qama is double edged... and identical to the Kindjal (one example is in the photo provided by Ibrahiim). If it is single edge, it is most likely a Qaddara wrongly named.

Qaddara is single edged, with slightly curved blade towards the tip (like the one in the original photos posted by Ariel).

Best regards,

Marius

PS: I assume that for every type of sword, you may find some exceptions that cannot be precisely classified as they display hybrid characteristics. But exceptions only confirm the rule.

PPS: You may find it useful to have a look at the thread posted by Miguel related to Quamas, Qaddaras and Kindjals.
And you may want to get the book "Arms and Armor of the Caucasus" by Kiril Rivkin, which I believe is the best reference book on this subject.

ALEX · 16th March 2016, 07:42 PM

For some reason I thought the Qama, being a "short sword", is more related to Quadara, and Kindjal being it's own, separate category.
Now I see I confused Qama with Quadarra. Qama is indeed a Kindjal category.
Marius, you were right!

mariusgmioc · 16th March 2016, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Marius, you were right!

... this time.

ariel · 18th March 2016, 07:27 PM

OK, the steam is definitely out, and no new suggestions have been posted.
Time for an answer.

Ian is absolutely correct: both are secondary products of broken standard blades.
Both come from Georgia.
In that part of the world wars were an uninterrupted chain of events. Weapons were consumed rapidly, and there was no sufficient capacity to renew their supply. People had to rely on "re-purposing" broken parts, blades in particular.

The upper one is Khevsurian Dashna. Pay attention to the blade: typical Khevsurian low quality job, and pretty old and worn to boot. The word "dashna" was mentioned in the Georgian dictionary of Sulhan Saba Orbeliani in the 17th century.
Classical examples had kindjal-like handles and plenty of brass on the handle and the scabbard.
The one I show is a much later example, mid 20 century: D-guard, handle materials.

Believe it or not, those were in active use even then, despite all the restrictions imposed by the Soviet regime. Khevsurs never paid much attention to any government:-)

The second one ( quaddara-like) is even more interesting.
I got information about it from Vakhtang Kiziria, a Georgian researcher, who wrote several articles about these short improvised weapons.
He consulted with 2 more Georgian weapons researchers and...

This is a weapon that originated in Eastern Georgia, Kakheti, and is locally known as Sabarkali.They were known there since the end of the 18th century till ~ 1820 ( when the Russians came). After that , beginning ~1850 they penetrated to the neighboring Armenia and Azerbaijan, where they were called Quaddara and widely used in the religious ceremonies of Ashura. Azeris expanded its presence to Persia.

My example has a village-made Georgian palash blade of unexpectedly high quality: no caverns at all and in more than 20 years since I got it, I did not oil it even once, and there is not a trace of rust, just thin beautiful patina. Ian was astute: the fuller goes ~2.5 inches inside the handle, indicating that the current blade is just a remainder of a broken old one. Taking into account chronology of Sabarkali ( beginning of 19th century at the latest), the blade must be even older.

Hope it was interesting and useful at least for somebody:-)

mariusgmioc · 18th March 2016, 10:44 PM

Hope it was interesting and useful at least for somebody:-)[/QUOTE]

Interesting indeed. Thank you!

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 19th March 2016, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

OK, the steam is definitely out, and no new suggestions have been posted.
Time for an answer.

Ian is absolutely correct: both are secondary products of broken standard blades.
Both come from Georgia.
In that part of the world wars were an uninterrupted chain of events. Weapons were consumed rapidly, and there was no sufficient capacity to renew their supply. People had to rely on "re-purposing" broken parts, blades in particular.

The upper one is Khevsurian Dashna. Pay attention to the blade: typical Khevsurian low quality job, and pretty old and worn to boot. The word "dashna" was mentioned in the Georgian dictionary of Sulhan Saba Orbeliani in the 17th century.
Classical examples had kindjal-like handles and plenty of brass on the handle and the scabbard.
The one I show is a much later example, mid 20 century: D-guard, handle materials.

Believe it or not, those were in active use even then, despite all the restrictions imposed by the Soviet regime. Khevsurs never paid much attention to any government:-)

The second one ( quaddara-like) is even more interesting.
I got information about it from Vakhtang Kiziria, a Georgian researcher, who wrote several articles about these short improvised weapons.
He consulted with 2 more Georgian weapons researchers and...

This is a weapon that originated in Eastern Georgia, Kakheti, and is locally known as Sabarkali.They were known there since the end of the 18th century till ~ 1820 ( when the Russians came). After that , beginning ~1850 they penetrated to the neighboring Armenia and Azerbaijan, where they were called Quaddara and widely used in the religious ceremonies of Ashura. Azeris expanded its presence to Persia.

My example has a village-made Georgian palash blade of unexpectedly high quality: no caverns at all and in more than 20 years since I got it, I did not oil it even once, and there is not a trace of rust, just thin beautiful patina. Ian was astute: the fuller goes ~2.5 inches inside the handle, indicating that the current blade is just a remainder of a broken old one. Taking into account chronology of Sabarkali ( beginning of 19th century at the latest), the blade must be even older.

Hope it was interesting and useful at least for somebody:-)

Salaams Ariel...Do I not get a consolation prize for guessing Georgia?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi,.

ariel · 19th March 2016, 02:35 PM

Ibrahiim and Ian: Gold medals for both of you:-)))))

Jim McDougall · 19th March 2016, 02:42 PM

Ariel, I think you deserve a gold medal as well!!
That write up and clearly explained post you placed on these was excellent! and it is great to have that kind of detail to better understand the esoterica of these forms.
Thank you.

machinist · 20th March 2016, 03:59 AM

A lovely write-up on the dashna is here http://www.academia.edu/1917231/Khevsuruli_dashna

ariel · 20th March 2016, 04:55 AM

Thanks for pointing out his site. I was not aware of it.

Yes, this is the same Vakhtang Kiziria who opened our collective eyes to these weapons. My short description is a very, very pale rendition of his outstanding work.
I would strongly recommend getting his papers from the site mentioned by Machinist.
I am getting his papers on Laz Bichagi.
His paper with Bakradze about West Georgian sabers is a masterpiece.
IMHO, in the field of Georgian Weapons he is an equivalent of Elgood .

Ian · 22nd March 2016, 12:03 AM

Ariel:

I think we should try to archive here as much as possible of the material on Georgian weapons as there does not appear to be another web site that has a broad perspective on these.

Ian.

ariel · 22nd March 2016, 02:46 AM

I agree.
And, in addition to that, I would also strongly recommend a new book by Kirill Rivkin on Caucasian weapons. The best one available !
It is available on Amazon.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 22nd March 2016, 01:44 PM

Salaams All... This is a superb idea.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

14th March 2016, 04:32 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	A riddle just for fun and learning Gentlemen, Here are 2 short single-edged swords/sabers/ daggers ( you decide). The upper one has a scabbard, the lower one is "naked". Who can tell where they are coming from, their names, approximate ages, and what is the single peculiar feature that is common to them? Attached Images

16th March 2016, 07:07 PM	#11
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	[QUOTE=ALEX] Hello Alex, The Qama is NOT single edged. The Qama is double edged... and identical to the Kindjal (one example is in the photo provided by Ibrahiim). If it is single edge, it is most likely a Qaddara wrongly named. Qaddara is single edged, with slightly curved blade towards the tip (like the one in the original photos posted by Ariel). Best regards, Marius PS: I assume that for every type of sword, you may find some exceptions that cannot be precisely classified as they display hybrid characteristics. But exceptions only confirm the rule. PPS: You may find it useful to have a look at the thread posted by Miguel related to Quamas, Qaddaras and Kindjals. And you may want to get the book "Arms and Armor of the Caucasus" by Kiril Rivkin, which I believe is the best reference book on this subject. Last edited by mariusgmioc; 16th March 2016 at 07:34 PM.

18th March 2016, 07:27 PM	#14
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	OK, the steam is definitely out, and no new suggestions have been posted. Time for an answer. Ian is absolutely correct: both are secondary products of broken standard blades. Both come from Georgia. In that part of the world wars were an uninterrupted chain of events. Weapons were consumed rapidly, and there was no sufficient capacity to renew their supply. People had to rely on "re-purposing" broken parts, blades in particular. The upper one is Khevsurian Dashna. Pay attention to the blade: typical Khevsurian low quality job, and pretty old and worn to boot. The word "dashna" was mentioned in the Georgian dictionary of Sulhan Saba Orbeliani in the 17th century. Classical examples had kindjal-like handles and plenty of brass on the handle and the scabbard. The one I show is a much later example, mid 20 century: D-guard, handle materials. Believe it or not, those were in active use even then, despite all the restrictions imposed by the Soviet regime. Khevsurs never paid much attention to any government:-) The second one ( quaddara-like) is even more interesting. I got information about it from Vakhtang Kiziria, a Georgian researcher, who wrote several articles about these short improvised weapons. He consulted with 2 more Georgian weapons researchers and... This is a weapon that originated in Eastern Georgia, Kakheti, and is locally known as Sabarkali.They were known there since the end of the 18th century till ~ 1820 ( when the Russians came). After that , beginning ~1850 they penetrated to the neighboring Armenia and Azerbaijan, where they were called Quaddara and widely used in the religious ceremonies of Ashura. Azeris expanded its presence to Persia. My example has a village-made Georgian palash blade of unexpectedly high quality: no caverns at all and in more than 20 years since I got it, I did not oil it even once, and there is not a trace of rust, just thin beautiful patina. Ian was astute: the fuller goes ~2.5 inches inside the handle, indicating that the current blade is just a remainder of a broken old one. Taking into account chronology of Sabarkali ( beginning of 19th century at the latest), the blade must be even older. Hope it was interesting and useful at least for somebody:-) Last edited by ariel; 18th March 2016 at 10:44 PM.

14th March 2016, 12:10 PM	#2
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams Ariel, Hmm... good question... could it be that the fullers on both weapons are in different places on each face...so as to decrease the weight? Are these Georgian?... Are they Kindjals as opposed to the similar looking Quaderrah of Iran? Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

14th March 2016, 12:31 PM	#4
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	I love to guess. But I assume, Ariel, that your answser is based on solid arguments and proofs. If not, I guess that all opinions will be valid... Maybe the blades are old qaddara or kinjal cut in two pieces? (right in the middle) One hilt looks like these Sahelian daggers/swords (with copper bands). The blond horn of the qaddara looks like these Tunisan daggers. I really don't know!!! Best, Kubur

14th March 2016, 03:24 PM	#6
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,207	Thanks for posting a riddle Ariel. I like mysteries. I'm not sure where these are from, but I would offer the suggestion that each blade looks as though it may be cut down from something longer. The fullers run all the way to the hilt, and in the case of the longer example, the fuller can be seen running under the hilt. (The cross-section of the hilt piece looks like it was made for another weapon also.) That suggests to me that the blade has been cut down and refashioned into a shorter sword/knife. Ian.

16th March 2016, 07:42 PM	#12
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	For some reason I thought the Qama, being a "short sword", is more related to Quadara, and Kindjal being it's own, separate category. Now I see I confused Qama with Quadarra. Qama is indeed a Kindjal category. Marius, you were right!

18th March 2016, 10:44 PM	#15
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Hope it was interesting and useful at least for somebody:-)[/QUOTE] Interesting indeed. Thank you!

19th March 2016, 02:35 PM	#17
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Ibrahiim and Ian: Gold medals for both of you:-)))))

19th March 2016, 02:42 PM	#18
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Ariel, I think you deserve a gold medal as well!! That write up and clearly explained post you placed on these was excellent! and it is great to have that kind of detail to better understand the esoterica of these forms. Thank you.

20th March 2016, 03:59 AM	#19
machinist Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 93	A lovely write-up on the dashna is here http://www.academia.edu/1917231/Khevsuruli_dashna

20th March 2016, 04:55 AM	#20
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Thanks for pointing out his site. I was not aware of it. Yes, this is the same Vakhtang Kiziria who opened our collective eyes to these weapons. My short description is a very, very pale rendition of his outstanding work. I would strongly recommend getting his papers from the site mentioned by Machinist. I am getting his papers on Laz Bichagi. His paper with Bakradze about West Georgian sabers is a masterpiece. IMHO, in the field of Georgian Weapons he is an equivalent of Elgood .

22nd March 2016, 12:03 AM	#21
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,207	Ariel: I think we should try to archive here as much as possible of the material on Georgian weapons as there does not appear to be another web site that has a broad perspective on these. Ian.

22nd March 2016, 02:46 AM	#22
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I agree. And, in addition to that, I would also strongly recommend a new book by Kirill Rivkin on Caucasian weapons. The best one available ! It is available on Amazon.

22nd March 2016, 01:44 PM	#23
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams All... This is a superb idea. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.