H4ow to count Luk???

ariel · 24th October 2013, 03:02 AM

In a recent thread the owner had a doubt how many luk his keris had. Alan then mentioned the "old" and the "current" versions of counting luk ( the current one adds 2 to the old one).

I always thought that the correct ( being the novice in the field, the only one I know) way of counting luk is:
-Count first concavity on the janggut side
- Start zig-zagging from side to side and count each concavity
- Occasionally, the last one , i.e. at the very tip, might be of uncertain origin, in which case one might mistakenly count even number of luk.

Am I correct?
Thanks in advance for the lesson.

A. G. Maisey · 24th October 2013, 03:58 AM

Yes Ariel, you are absolutely correct.

However the way in which we count luk is in my opinion a learnt convention, one that can be attributed to the collapse of Hindu - Javanese society, and the rise of Islam in Jawa.

You can read my thoughts on this here:-

http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/INTERPRETATIONPAGE5.html

this link will take you directly to my thoughts on luk, however, reading the previous pages will assist in your understanding of where I'm coming from.

I would venture to say that at the present time I am probably the only person in the world who holds this opinion in respect of the luk count.

ariel · 25th October 2013, 02:02 AM

Vanna Ghirighelli mentions in her book that she has two 12-luk and one 10-luk kerises. She further states that the number 12 is the indonesian ideal of harmony.
True?

David · 25th October 2013, 02:46 AM

Ariel, i have certainly heard the idea of 12 being a significant number in Javanese Mysticism and that one can find the occasional rare 12 luk keris, but i can't say that i ever saw one that couldn't be interpreted as either actually 13 or perhaps a 13 luk keris that has been worn down sufficiently over time and now only appears to be 12. This is not to say that a 12 luk keris does not exist, but when you ask if this is "true" i think you enter into a fluid territory. If you read Alan's treatise on the subject you will note his hypothesis that the number of luk are based upon certain Hindu principles that were part of the Javanese culture at the time of the origin of the keris. At some point since the advent of Islam Java this system/method of counting underwent a change. So, do we count Ms. Ghirighelli's 12 luk keris as 12 or 10? Does it matter if the keris being counted originated in a Hundu or Islamic Jawa? Is it more likely that a keris breaks from the long tradition embraced in both the Hindu and Islamic influenced Javanese cultures of odd numbered luk or that the blade simply worn down over time to appear as an even number? I think what is "true" in this case might depend upon what belief system you choose to embrace.

A. G. Maisey · 25th October 2013, 03:21 AM

Ariel, I have often heard of keris with an even number of luk, but whenever I've actually seen these even luk keris they have invariably appeared to me to be as David has suggested:- older keris that have been altered, perhaps because of damage.

In no keris tradition of which I know, is the existence of a keris with an even number of luk a valid occurrence.

I have yet to hear any acknowledged ahli keris in Jawa accept the existence of an even numbered keris, however, I have quite frequently heard of keris with an even number of luk from salesmen and those who dwell on the fringe of the World of the Keris.

My personal opinion is that the keris with an even number of luk was never created as an original and valid production. However, as with many things associated with the keris, all are entitled to their own opinions.

Battara · 25th October 2013, 03:33 AM

I have always read that a lucky and good keris should have an odd number of luks. To my understanding this applies to Indonesian keris and Moro kris both.

24th October 2013, 03:02 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	H4ow to count Luk??? In a recent thread the owner had a doubt how many luk his keris had. Alan then mentioned the "old" and the "current" versions of counting luk ( the current one adds 2 to the old one). I always thought that the correct ( being the novice in the field, the only one I know) way of counting luk is: -Count first concavity on the janggut side - Start zig-zagging from side to side and count each concavity - Occasionally, the last one , i.e. at the very tip, might be of uncertain origin, in which case one might mistakenly count even number of luk. Am I correct? Thanks in advance for the lesson.

24th October 2013, 03:58 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,873	Yes Ariel, you are absolutely correct. However the way in which we count luk is in my opinion a learnt convention, one that can be attributed to the collapse of Hindu - Javanese society, and the rise of Islam in Jawa. You can read my thoughts on this here:- http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/INTERPRETATIONPAGE5.html this link will take you directly to my thoughts on luk, however, reading the previous pages will assist in your understanding of where I'm coming from. I would venture to say that at the present time I am probably the only person in the world who holds this opinion in respect of the luk count.

25th October 2013, 02:02 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Vanna Ghirighelli mentions in her book that she has two 12-luk and one 10-luk kerises. She further states that the number 12 is the indonesian ideal of harmony. True?

25th October 2013, 02:46 AM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,109	Ariel, i have certainly heard the idea of 12 being a significant number in Javanese Mysticism and that one can find the occasional rare 12 luk keris, but i can't say that i ever saw one that couldn't be interpreted as either actually 13 or perhaps a 13 luk keris that has been worn down sufficiently over time and now only appears to be 12. This is not to say that a 12 luk keris does not exist, but when you ask if this is "true" i think you enter into a fluid territory. If you read Alan's treatise on the subject you will note his hypothesis that the number of luk are based upon certain Hindu principles that were part of the Javanese culture at the time of the origin of the keris. At some point since the advent of Islam Java this system/method of counting underwent a change. So, do we count Ms. Ghirighelli's 12 luk keris as 12 or 10? Does it matter if the keris being counted originated in a Hundu or Islamic Jawa? Is it more likely that a keris breaks from the long tradition embraced in both the Hindu and Islamic influenced Javanese cultures of odd numbered luk or that the blade simply worn down over time to appear as an even number? I think what is "true" in this case might depend upon what belief system you choose to embrace.

25th October 2013, 03:21 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,873	Ariel, I have often heard of keris with an even number of luk, but whenever I've actually seen these even luk keris they have invariably appeared to me to be as David has suggested:- older keris that have been altered, perhaps because of damage. In no keris tradition of which I know, is the existence of a keris with an even number of luk a valid occurrence. I have yet to hear any acknowledged ahli keris in Jawa accept the existence of an even numbered keris, however, I have quite frequently heard of keris with an even number of luk from salesmen and those who dwell on the fringe of the World of the Keris. My personal opinion is that the keris with an even number of luk was never created as an original and valid production. However, as with many things associated with the keris, all are entitled to their own opinions.

25th October 2013, 03:33 AM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,212	I have always read that a lucky and good keris should have an odd number of luks. To my understanding this applies to Indonesian keris and Moro kris both.