Gorgeous genoui with rhino horn hilt

Emanuel · 19th January 2008, 04:04 AM

This puppy just went on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...MEWA:IT&ih=022

Nice Moroccan genoui, the seller said the hilt was wooded, but the orange-skin look of it makes me think it's rhino horn.
Comments?

kai · 19th January 2008, 11:48 AM

Yup, seems like Artzi is also betting on a horn hilt...

CharlesS · 21st January 2008, 01:23 AM

Here is another one of very similar form and materials.

Flavio · 21st January 2008, 10:53 PM

Hi all, maybe I'm wrong but seems that the blade is a bayonet blade? Sorry for the stupid question

Emanuel · 21st January 2008, 11:09 PM

Bayonet, smallsword, sabre, most any blade from Europe I imagine. Since they were fitted with rhino horn, they must have been well thought of.
They make awesome-looking dagger I think

Jim McDougall · 21st January 2008, 11:16 PM

Very astute Flavio! and not in the least bit 'stupid' !!!
This probably is a bayonet blade, and these blades taken from the bayonets of colonial weapons quite typical on this form (genoui) as well as the s'boula which turns up as far as Zanzibar and Ethiopia referred to as a Zanzibar sword (see Burton). This is one of the reasons that references to many European and British regulation arms become closely associated to the study of ethnographic edged weapons.
The so called 'Berber' sabres, that attribution remaining somewhat in question, is typically mounted with blades from British M1796 light cavalry sabres with highly profiled tip.

Now the question would be, what type of bayonet? My guess would be 19th century French.....anybody got a bayonet book?

Best regards,
Jim

TVV · 21st January 2008, 11:29 PM

My bayonet books are at home and I am stuck at work on MLK day (sigh), so I am not sure what it is, but it does not look like a Chassepot or Gras bayonet, which is what I would have expected given the strong French presence in this part of the world from the mid 19th to the mid 20th centuries. It could be from the Berthier-Mannlicher rifle (M1892), as the blade is obviously straight with a single, wide fuller. It most certainly is not from the Spanish long M1893 Mauser bayonet.
Now, the question is, has the French Foreign Legion ever been armed with Berthier-Mannlicher rifles? If the answer is yes, then maybe we have identified the blades.

Jim McDougall · 21st January 2008, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Yup, seems like Artzi is also betting on a horn hilt...

Artzi's very good taste and acumen in finding excellent examples for his holdings prevails!!

Jim McDougall · 21st January 2008, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

My bayonet books are at home and I am stuck at work on MLK day (sigh), so I am not sure what it is, but it does not look like a Chassepot or Gras bayonet, which is what I would have expected given the strong French presence in this part of the world from the mid 19th to the mid 20th centuries. It could be from the Berthier-Mannlicher rifle (M1892), as the blade is obviously straight with a single, wide fuller. It most certainly is not from the Spanish long M1893 Mauser bayonet.
Now, the question is, has the French Foreign Legion ever been armed with Berthier-Mannlicher rifles? If the answer is yes, then maybe we have identified the blades.

Outstanding Teodor! You're doing pretty good from memory there!

I think we should consider not only the French we were obviously highly concentrated in the Sahara, and as you have considered, the Spanish, but through trade and other means the presence of British and German weaponry was also prevalent.

All the best,
Jim

Emanuel · 22nd January 2008, 12:12 AM

Since the term "genoui" is attributed to these daggers, would Italian blades be possible sources, or is the term just an anachronism from an older period when the Maghrib did trade with the Genoese?

Emanuel

TVV · 22nd January 2008, 12:51 AM

Manolo,
As you noted and I completely agree with you, they can be from anything. The only requirement is that whatever was shortened, should have somehow made its way to the Maghreb.
Here is a picture of a Bertheir bayonet from Richard Abbenbroek's web site, where he has uploaded pictures of various bayonets from his collection. Look at the peculiar discontinuation in the fuller towards the base of the blade - it seems that the same feature is present on Charle's genoui, so his must be made from such a bayonet for sure.

Of course, other bayonets, and not only blades, were also used. I have a shula dagger with a scabbard mouth made from a bayonet scabbard.
Regards,
Teodor

Jim McDougall · 22nd January 2008, 01:02 AM

Very good suggestion Emanuel, and it is true that the Italian trade indeed did produce considerable influence from early times in the Maghreb and throughout the North African littoral. It seems that there have been strong suggestions that the distinctly shaped pommel of the koumiyya derives from the pommel shape of the Italian cinqueda. In those early times such weapons might have come from either Genoa or Venice, both city states who were fiercely competitive for trade.
I wonder if the possible reference to Genoa, might have been used in other weapons in Maghreb regions as well, much as Emanuel suggests in the same parlance as 'firangi' in India, loosely meaning 'foreign'.

I am inclined to think that Italian bayonets would likely not be included, at least from colonial presence in the Sahara, but since they were of course present in East Africa, the profound trade may account for some possibility.

We gotta get the bayonet books!

All best regards,
Jim

Emanuel · 22nd January 2008, 01:04 AM

Hi Teodor,

I agree with you completely that the Berthier bayonet could very likely be the source of the blade for this dagger. My remark was meant at the general use of imported blades.
I still find it interesting that these blades were fitted with such a prestige material as rhino horn. I will try to find the other genoui I have seen, perhaps Moroccans appreciated the Berthier highly and saw it as a prestige blade as well...

Cheers!
Emanuel

Jim McDougall · 22nd January 2008, 01:07 AM

Excellent Teodor!! I just saw your post. Since I'm way not up on bayonets, I am presuming the Berthier is French ? It looks c.1890's to WWI, would that be right? What type rifles were these used on? Foreign Legion?

Thank you for posting this.

All best regards,
Jim

19th January 2008, 04:04 AM	#1
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Gorgeous genoui with rhino horn hilt This puppy just went on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...MEWA:IT&ih=022 Nice Moroccan genoui, the seller said the hilt was wooded, but the orange-skin look of it makes me think it's rhino horn. Comments? Attached Images

21st January 2008, 01:23 AM	#3
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Here is another one of very similar form and materials. Attached Images

22nd January 2008, 12:51 AM	#11
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,623	Manolo, As you noted and I completely agree with you, they can be from anything. The only requirement is that whatever was shortened, should have somehow made its way to the Maghreb. Here is a picture of a Bertheir bayonet from Richard Abbenbroek's web site, where he has uploaded pictures of various bayonets from his collection. Look at the peculiar discontinuation in the fuller towards the base of the blade - it seems that the same feature is present on Charle's genoui, so his must be made from such a bayonet for sure. Of course, other bayonets, and not only blades, were also used. I have a shula dagger with a scabbard mouth made from a bayonet scabbard. Regards, Teodor Attached Images

19th January 2008, 11:48 AM	#2
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Yup, seems like Artzi is also betting on a horn hilt...

21st January 2008, 10:53 PM	#4
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hi all, maybe I'm wrong but seems that the blade is a bayonet blade? Sorry for the stupid question

21st January 2008, 11:09 PM	#5
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Bayonet, smallsword, sabre, most any blade from Europe I imagine. Since they were fitted with rhino horn, they must have been well thought of. They make awesome-looking dagger I think

21st January 2008, 11:16 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Very astute Flavio! and not in the least bit 'stupid' !!! This probably is a bayonet blade, and these blades taken from the bayonets of colonial weapons quite typical on this form (genoui) as well as the s'boula which turns up as far as Zanzibar and Ethiopia referred to as a Zanzibar sword (see Burton). This is one of the reasons that references to many European and British regulation arms become closely associated to the study of ethnographic edged weapons. The so called 'Berber' sabres, that attribution remaining somewhat in question, is typically mounted with blades from British M1796 light cavalry sabres with highly profiled tip. Now the question would be, what type of bayonet? My guess would be 19th century French.....anybody got a bayonet book? Best regards, Jim

21st January 2008, 11:29 PM	#7
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,623	My bayonet books are at home and I am stuck at work on MLK day (sigh), so I am not sure what it is, but it does not look like a Chassepot or Gras bayonet, which is what I would have expected given the strong French presence in this part of the world from the mid 19th to the mid 20th centuries. It could be from the Berthier-Mannlicher rifle (M1892), as the blade is obviously straight with a single, wide fuller. It most certainly is not from the Spanish long M1893 Mauser bayonet. Now, the question is, has the French Foreign Legion ever been armed with Berthier-Mannlicher rifles? If the answer is yes, then maybe we have identified the blades.

22nd January 2008, 12:12 AM	#10
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Since the term "genoui" is attributed to these daggers, would Italian blades be possible sources, or is the term just an anachronism from an older period when the Maghrib did trade with the Genoese? Emanuel

22nd January 2008, 01:02 AM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Very good suggestion Emanuel, and it is true that the Italian trade indeed did produce considerable influence from early times in the Maghreb and throughout the North African littoral. It seems that there have been strong suggestions that the distinctly shaped pommel of the koumiyya derives from the pommel shape of the Italian cinqueda. In those early times such weapons might have come from either Genoa or Venice, both city states who were fiercely competitive for trade. I wonder if the possible reference to Genoa, might have been used in other weapons in Maghreb regions as well, much as Emanuel suggests in the same parlance as 'firangi' in India, loosely meaning 'foreign'. I am inclined to think that Italian bayonets would likely not be included, at least from colonial presence in the Sahara, but since they were of course present in East Africa, the profound trade may account for some possibility. We gotta get the bayonet books! All best regards, Jim

22nd January 2008, 01:04 AM	#13
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Teodor, I agree with you completely that the Berthier bayonet could very likely be the source of the blade for this dagger. My remark was meant at the general use of imported blades. I still find it interesting that these blades were fitted with such a prestige material as rhino horn. I will try to find the other genoui I have seen, perhaps Moroccans appreciated the Berthier highly and saw it as a prestige blade as well... Cheers! Emanuel

22nd January 2008, 01:07 AM	#14
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Excellent Teodor!! I just saw your post. Since I'm way not up on bayonets, I am presuming the Berthier is French ? It looks c.1890's to WWI, would that be right? What type rifles were these used on? Foreign Legion? Thank you for posting this. All best regards, Jim