Strange dagger ... can someone ID?

fernando · 2nd October 2008, 07:53 PM

This has been a riddle, since i acquired it; seller also ignored how old it is, what it is and where it comes from :confused.
Single edged blade, with 12 cms. ... double edged at point section; with three brass filled holes.
Bone handle, with a heavy load of patina ... a bit damaged and missing the pommel ring (?);but the brass ferrule is still there.
We can see that the handle bone was stuffed with wood to acomodate the tang.
That ring between blade and handle and the filled holes should be a good identifier, but i just don't get it myself.
Any help would be so much welcome.

Fernando

.

Atlantia · 2nd October 2008, 08:23 PM

I'd say you've got it in the right place buddy!
Southern European, Late 18thC 'peasant' knife.
I particularly like the 'ring' can you get a fingertip into it?
Very nice! Whittle a litle bit of bone to repair the chip ;-)

Regards
Gene

P.S. After my recent research onlin for my own knife, if I had to guess, the single edge and brass inserts would make me plump for it being Spanish.
Although its not the standard 'punal B' I think its a variation possibly with a more Italian influence?
As I say, thats a Guess.

Jim McDougall · 2nd October 2008, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

I'd say you've got it in the right place buddy!
Southern European, Late 18thC 'peasant' knife.
I particularly like the 'ring' can you get a fingertip into it?
Very nice! Whittle a litle bit of bone to repair the chip ;-)

Regards
Gene

P.S. After my recent research onlin for my own knife, if I had to guess, the single edge and brass inserts would make me plump for it being Spanish.
Although its not the standard 'punal B' I think its a variation possibly with a more Italian influence?
As I say, thats a Guess.

Gene's radar is right on!! That would be my take on this piece also, that this is likely Spanish. Interesting note are those mysterious brass filled dots. On the Ethnographic Forum is a post by Dralin23, which is a khanda having this as yet unexplained feature. The suggestion of plugs placed to correct flaws in the forged steel seemed plausible, but those would seem less orderly in placement...these are clearly strategically in line. To me that suggests symbolism of some kind.
The so called Albacete plug bayonet/knives with the 'dumbbell' shape cutout in the blade often appears left open, while many are brass filled. It is suggested that this opening is for placement for a toggle bar which is often seen on Spanish lances, pikes etc. to prevent over penetration or in the case of hunting the animal could sometimes ride up the weapon to the hunter.

kahnjar1 · 3rd October 2008, 04:19 AM

[QUOTE=Atlantia]I'd say you've got it in the right place buddy!
Southern European, Late 18thC 'peasant' knife.
I particularly like the 'ring' can you get a fingertip into it?
Very nice! Whittle a litle bit of bone to repair the chip ;-)

Regards
Gene

QUOTE]
NO, NO, NO FERNANDO,
PLEASE DON'T BE TEMPTED TO TRY PUTTING YOUR FINGER IN THE HOLE! NEXT WE WILL SEE THIS FOR SALE INCLUDING THE FINGER TIGHTLY WEDGED!!!
Interesting thought...................

Jim McDougall · 3rd October 2008, 05:25 AM

Hi Fernando,
I havent really got more to add, but just wanted to say I keep getting drawn back to this piece simply because it has such outstanding charisma! This is a classic example of beautiful 18th century patination which contrasts perfectly with aged bone and the inset brass discs. In my mind there is little to compare to pieces like this, and I would leave it as is...aside from trying to repair that chipped bone grip.

I have to admit, I was thinking of the same thing as you on the ring, I guess thinking of those Central American dirks with a ring near the guard (in Levine, but dont have the reference at the moment).

Fernando, I think you are rapidly advancing on Rainhardts position in outstanding range in collecting!!!

Thank you so much for always so openly sharing your wonderful conquests!!

All the best,
Jim

fernando · 3rd October 2008, 03:36 PM

Hi Gene, much obliged for your input.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

... Southern European, Late 18thC 'peasant' knife ... being Spanish ... possibly with a more Italian influence? ...

Late XVIII century suits me good. I allways fall for antiquity, before all other considerations.
But this ambiguity of the provenance being Southern European in general or Spanish but also possibly Italian, is a saga for my demanding (read maniac) character. I already have to deal with the Iberian number, due to my geographical context, which is itself an invoice, on what touches provenance specifity.
But well, you can't win them all

Thanks again
Fernando

Atlantia · 3rd October 2008, 03:53 PM

[QUOTE=kahnjar1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

I'd say you've got it in the right place buddy!
Southern European, Late 18thC 'peasant' knife.
I particularly like the 'ring' can you get a fingertip into it?
Very nice! Whittle a litle bit of bone to repair the chip ;-)

Regards
Gene

QUOTE]
NO, NO, NO FERNANDO,
PLEASE DON'T BE TEMPTED TO TRY PUTTING YOUR FINGER IN THE HOLE! NEXT WE WILL SEE THIS FOR SALE INCLUDING THE FINGER TIGHTLY WEDGED!!!
Interesting thought...................

LOL, sorry, wasn't thinking about the possibility of a trip to the emergency room!

fernando · 3rd October 2008, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

... NO, NO, NO FERNANDO,
PLEASE DON'T BE TEMPTED TO TRY PUTTING YOUR FINGER IN THE HOLE! NEXT WE WILL SEE THIS FOR SALE INCLUDING THE FINGER TIGHTLY WEDGED ...

I wouldn't easily do that, Stu.
I only have five fingers, so can't embark into such adventures.

Unless i use my prosthesis; in that case you would end up seeing the knife up for sale with a whole rubber hand stuck into into it

Fernando

-

fernando · 3rd October 2008, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

LOL, sorry, wasn't thinking about the possibility of a trip to the emergency room!

... or a trip to the workshop ... got it ?

Fernando

Atlantia · 3rd October 2008, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Gene, much obliged for your input.

Late XVIII century suits me good. I allways fall for antiquity, before all other considerations.
But this ambiguity of the provenance being Southern European in general or Spanish but also possibly Italian, is a saga for my demanding (read maniac) character. I already have to deal with the Iberian number, due to my geographical context, which is itself an invoice, on what touches provenance specifity.
But well, you can't win them all

Thanks again
Fernando

I think this is a very interesting piece Fernando.
We've seen other daggers of this general type discussed recently, with the carved upper blade section, but the carving is always just a decorative element.
Yours has made me wonder if the 'ring' is actually a practical innovation.

I know I do tend to 'mentally wander off' a bit when it comes to these discussions, but see what you think of these ideas.

Could the ring be for extra grip when drawing the knife?
In recent years some designs for 'fighting knives' have included a finger-ring inbetween the blade and hilt.

Also, if we assume this is a knife that amongst its many uses includes stabbing with the intention of killing (I know that sounds obvious, but lets think of the context of stabbing to the throat/kidney or other 'fatal' areas) then think of the evolution of the Fairbairn-Sykes commando knife and the inital alleged 'problems' with the smoother handle patterns not providing enough grip to pull the knife back out when covered in blood and fighting the suction of the wound, could the 'ring' be to allow a finger or even the end of your thumb to make sure your grip didn't slip?

Its very interesting if possible.

Regards
Gene

fernando · 3rd October 2008, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... I would leave it as is ...

I certainly will, Jim.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... I think you are rapidly advancing on Rainhardts position in outstanding range in collecting ...

Don't make fun of the poor

As a punishment, i will soon post a couple more (last) humble pieces.

Fernando

fernando · 3rd October 2008, 06:09 PM

Hi Gene,
I perfectly understand your theory about the ring being a device for an intended use.
But to give you an idea ... and talking in inches.
Knife (dagger) total length is about 9 1/2". The ring interior measures between 3/8" and 1/2"., so impossible to penetrate with a finger. Besides, as it is positioned almost at the middle of the piece, so distant from the handle body, all you could do, grip wise, would be to extend your index finger and place it 'upon' the ring circumference, more in a 'directive' attitude than in a 'holding' one. I don't say this wouldn't serve the sugested purpose, but i doubt it. I am more inclined to consider, under influence of the three brass dots, that both details could be some kind of traditional or ritual (hardly free)decoration.
It is worthy of note, the ring not appearing to be an assessor to the handle, but having its own presence.
If it weren't for the false edge in half of the blade back, denoting this is more a stabbing 'punal' than a current use knife, we could wonder about the ring being a tool device, like for bending or extracting something, but it appears not to be the case.
All yours,
Fernando

kahnjar1 · 3rd October 2008, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

I wouldn't easily do that, Stu.
I only have five fingers, so can't embark into such adventures.

Unless i use my prosthseis; in that case you would end up seeing the knife up for sale with a whole rubber hand stuck into into it

Fernando

Now that would be REALLY interesting!!

fearn · 3rd October 2008, 11:19 PM

Wonder if the ring is a way of securing the blade in a sheath? Perhaps you could lace it to the sheath, or use a toggle?

F

fernando · 4th October 2008, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

Wonder if the ring is a way of securing the blade in a sheath? Perhaps you could lace it to the sheath, or use a toggle?

F

It's an idea; but the fact that the ring is practicaly placed at the center of the knife, obliges for its introduction well deep into the sheath, to avoid knife swinging down (center of balance is at gripo ferrule). I guess this (at least partialy) excludes the substance of such idea, right?
... This assuming there ever was a (conventional) sheath

Fernando

fernando · 7th October 2008, 08:08 PM

This is a hell of a coincidence ... or not?
From the collection of R.D.C. Evans, we can see in his written work, this interesting specimen, with a rather intriguing ring, in a fashion similar to the one presented in my knife.
The author considers (and i quote him) that the purpose for this hole is obscure, if indeed it has a practical function. On a second thaught he wonders if its use could be that of inserting the firearm's ram rod, to help loosening the bayonet from the gun barrel, when it gets stuck.
Obviously such purpose wouldn't suit my knife, as it certainly is not a plug bayonet. But i thaught it was interesting to bring here this case of similarity.
Evans dates his bayonet as being from the early XVIII century, and he thinks is possibly Basque.
Fernando

.

2nd October 2008, 07:53 PM	#1
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Strange dagger ... can someone ID? This has been a riddle, since i acquired it; seller also ignored how old it is, what it is and where it comes from :confused. Single edged blade, with 12 cms. ... double edged at point section; with three brass filled holes. Bone handle, with a heavy load of patina ... a bit damaged and missing the pommel ring (?);but the brass ferrule is still there. We can see that the handle bone was stuffed with wood to acomodate the tang. That ring between blade and handle and the filled holes should be a good identifier, but i just don't get it myself. Any help would be so much welcome. Fernando . Attached Images

7th October 2008, 08:08 PM	#16
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	This is a hell of a coincidence ... or not? From the collection of R.D.C. Evans, we can see in his written work, this interesting specimen, with a rather intriguing ring, in a fashion similar to the one presented in my knife. The author considers (and i quote him) that the purpose for this hole is obscure, if indeed it has a practical function. On a second thaught he wonders if its use could be that of inserting the firearm's ram rod, to help loosening the bayonet from the gun barrel, when it gets stuck. Obviously such purpose wouldn't suit my knife, as it certainly is not a plug bayonet. But i thaught it was interesting to bring here this case of similarity. Evans dates his bayonet as being from the early XVIII century, and he thinks is possibly Basque. Fernando . Attached Images

2nd October 2008, 08:23 PM	#2
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	I'd say you've got it in the right place buddy! Southern European, Late 18thC 'peasant' knife. I particularly like the 'ring' can you get a fingertip into it? Very nice! Whittle a litle bit of bone to repair the chip ;-) Regards Gene P.S. After my recent research onlin for my own knife, if I had to guess, the single edge and brass inserts would make me plump for it being Spanish. Although its not the standard 'punal B' I think its a variation possibly with a more Italian influence? As I say, thats a Guess.

3rd October 2008, 04:19 AM	#4
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,731	[QUOTE=Atlantia]I'd say you've got it in the right place buddy! Southern European, Late 18thC 'peasant' knife. I particularly like the 'ring' can you get a fingertip into it? Very nice! Whittle a litle bit of bone to repair the chip ;-) Regards Gene QUOTE] NO, NO, NO FERNANDO, PLEASE DON'T BE TEMPTED TO TRY PUTTING YOUR FINGER IN THE HOLE! NEXT WE WILL SEE THIS FOR SALE INCLUDING THE FINGER TIGHTLY WEDGED!!! Interesting thought...................

3rd October 2008, 05:25 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,898	Hi Fernando, I havent really got more to add, but just wanted to say I keep getting drawn back to this piece simply because it has such outstanding charisma! This is a classic example of beautiful 18th century patination which contrasts perfectly with aged bone and the inset brass discs. In my mind there is little to compare to pieces like this, and I would leave it as is...aside from trying to repair that chipped bone grip. I have to admit, I was thinking of the same thing as you on the ring, I guess thinking of those Central American dirks with a ring near the guard (in Levine, but dont have the reference at the moment). Fernando, I think you are rapidly advancing on Rainhardts position in outstanding range in collecting!!! Thank you so much for always so openly sharing your wonderful conquests!! All the best, Jim

3rd October 2008, 06:09 PM	#12
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Gene, I perfectly understand your theory about the ring being a device for an intended use. But to give you an idea ... and talking in inches. Knife (dagger) total length is about 9 1/2". The ring interior measures between 3/8" and 1/2"., so impossible to penetrate with a finger. Besides, as it is positioned almost at the middle of the piece, so distant from the handle body, all you could do, grip wise, would be to extend your index finger and place it 'upon' the ring circumference, more in a 'directive' attitude than in a 'holding' one. I don't say this wouldn't serve the sugested purpose, but i doubt it. I am more inclined to consider, under influence of the three brass dots, that both details could be some kind of traditional or ritual (hardly free)decoration. It is worthy of note, the ring not appearing to be an assessor to the handle, but having its own presence. If it weren't for the false edge in half of the blade back, denoting this is more a stabbing 'punal' than a current use knife, we could wonder about the ring being a tool device, like for bending or extracting something, but it appears not to be the case. All yours, Fernando

3rd October 2008, 11:19 PM	#14
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Wonder if the ring is a way of securing the blade in a sheath? Perhaps you could lace it to the sheath, or use a toggle? F