Ancha/Nimcha

ariel · 10th July 2008, 07:18 PM

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=130234811026
How do you like that?

TVV · 10th July 2008, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=130234811026
How do you like that?

I think Jim has done some research on these swords and his conclusion was that they are from Brasil. I am sure he will jump right in with tons of info, and he will surely include comments on the nimcha/Moroccan saif connection in the hilt.

Valjhun · 10th July 2008, 09:25 PM

Nice one for a fair price. Connection nimcha/ancha

Jim McDougall · 10th July 2008, 11:26 PM

Thank you so much Teodor for the recognition!! I have indeed been fascinated by Spanish colonial weapons for a very long time, and in all honesty, when I first acquired one of these, thought it to be Moroccan.
This was mostly due to the same assumption we see with espada/nimcha as noted here, and the nocked grip as on the Moroccan sa'if ('nimcha').

In studying espada anchas, I could see the influence diffused throughout the Spanish trade sphere, mostly as far as the Philippines, but never saw the South American examples. I first confirmed the identification on this particular form in an item appearing in Imperial Auctions last year, and the blade was marked with motif and inscriptions to Brazil. Review on Spanish trade between the Americas in the 19th century reconfirmed the potential diffusion of these, as well as establishing profound connections with Spanish colonies in Morocco.

This is a beautiful example, and the bird head as well as some of the geometric devices offer some interesting potential for research. The price the buyer got this for is in my opinion an amazing bargain, these are extremely desirable for Spanish colonial collectors!

chevalier · 11th July 2008, 12:50 AM

is there an evil eye on the handle?

Valjhun · 11th July 2008, 01:07 AM

Just the eye of a horse, I guess. Nimcha hilts are stylized horse heads, if I'm not wrong.

Jim McDougall · 11th July 2008, 01:47 AM

Chevalier and Valhun, its great to see observations on motif and I'm with you guys, in always trying to seek potential symbolism imbued in weapons.
Although it is tempting to think so, the eye shaped device on the hilt seems to have held some item such as mother of pearl or bone insert that probably aligned with the motif. The evil eye concept prevailed on North African and many Arabian weapons, but not on Spanish colonial.

The inside langet for carrying these often in a sash rather than scabbard seem characteristic on these shellguard examples of espada ancha (which is actually rather a misnomer as technically it describes a wide bladed heavy sword commonly used by Soldados de Cuero on Mexican frontier). It is interesting to note the semi circles applied overall in the hilt motif which recall the 'sickle marks' often widely seen on trade blades.

Valjhun, the distinct nocked grip on Moroccan sa'if (nimcha) hilts has long been considered in some degree zoomorphic, much like the hilt of the flyssa, and the trilobate hilt of the karabela....but I dont think there has ever been an accord on what creatures these overstylized hilts represent.
I had never thought of a horsehead, and would very much like to know of references that specify that identity, it would be fantastic to have that resolved!

Amother really unusual thing on the hilt of this example is the very clearly represented bird on the shell, and I'd like to discover more on this. Bird heads of this form in degree are seen on hilts in specific areas in Mexico, and may have to do with the eagle and snake on folklore and legend there, though the head is admittedly not very eagle like. Regardless this might establish an interesting association between Mexico and S.America.

chevalier · 11th July 2008, 05:11 AM

here is another spanish colonial sword

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=180258679308

katana · 11th July 2008, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

..........Although it is tempting to think so, the eye shaped device on the hilt seems to have held some item such as mother of pearl or bone insert that probably aligned with the motif. The evil eye concept prevailed on North African and many Arabian weapons, but not on Spanish colonial.

Amother really unusual thing on the hilt of this example is the very clearly represented bird on the shell, and I'd like to discover more on this. Bird heads of this form in degree are seen on hilts in specific areas in Mexico, and may have to do with the eagle and snake on folklore and legend there, though the head is admittedly not very eagle like. Regardless this might establish an interesting association between Mexico and S.America.

Hi Jim

,
perhaps the stylised bird is a Peacock, symbolic to many cultures, including the Moors and the Spanish. The possible 'evil eye' on the hilt may further support this....as the feather markings of the peacock are also associated with 'eyes' (Ancient Greeks) and for some cultures, the 'evil eye'. The peacock's display of feathers certainly lends itself to the shape of the shell guard.

Regards David

.

Jim McDougall · 11th July 2008, 06:06 PM

Chevalier, thank you for posting this most unusual 'machete' which seems to correspond loosely in some respects to long straight bladed weapons which typically have hilts with the nimcha like nock and fingerstalls. These were a puzzle for some time until we finally resolved they were actually associated with Cuba and the Philippines and often bringbacks from Spanish American War. The doghead hilt is extremely atypical for anything I've seen from Mexico
but the squiggled motif repeated in motif are the same as on many of the Cuban/Filipino examples.

David, you're really getting good at this 'out of the box' thinking! You bring up great points which are key particularly in studying Indian weapons, where the peacock was extremely important in regalia and other symbolic factors. I'm still not sure of the 'evil eye' association on this hilt, though there is a compelling free association to a human eye (reminding me of the old private eye sign of early detectives). While I have seen the brass stud/nail motif often used on Spanish colonial hilts, and generally in Moorish material culture, I do not recall the eye shape. This seems to be a fixture for holding some type of decorative element in that shape.
As I'll say again, I really like your way of thinking, and openly expressing observations in the true sense of weapons research. It seems that too often there is too much attention to auction and acquisition issues.

Gonzalo G · 11th July 2008, 08:33 PM

Jim, isn´t it a blade a bit too long for an Espada Ancha? I agree those hilts could be related to Africa, as we could find the moorish influence from the Espada Jineta, also used in Spain, on the general form of that hilt. Nimchas are not the only swords with this general type of hilt. I also agree that the eye is part of the head in which the hilt ends. I wonder how much cultural influence did the cristianos nuevos (new christians, or converted moors and jews), exercised into to the culture of the spanish colonies, as they came to America in great numbers.
My best regards

Gonzalo

Jim McDougall · 11th July 2008, 11:42 PM

Thanks so much for the response Gonzalo.
Yes, the blade is indeed too long for the literal 'espada ancha', which in Spanish means of course 'wide, heavy or large' sword from what I understand.
The term 'espada ancha' has become generally applied to both civilian sidearms carried by the hidalgos on thier estates as well as the heavy common swords carried by the Soldados de Cuero on the frontier. The application may well be compared to the term nimcha (actually means short sword in Arabic) but the blades on these are typically full length.

The grip with nock near the pommel, as seen on these Moroccan sa'ifs did probably influence the Spanish colonial hilts in some degree.It is important to note that the espada ancha hilt was also heavily influenced by 17th century hangers, such as the Hounslow hangers originally intended as hunting hangers. These were swords of the gentry, much as the espada ancha came to be in New Spain.The Hispano-Moresque jineta in the form I think of seems to be more in line with traditional swords of the earlier periods, and if I recall correctly had the downturned quillons. I think there is likely more explanation involved in 'jineta' as the Moorish warriors in both the Maghreb and in Andelusia.

There was of course quite considerable influence culturally as you mention, beginning with the Conquistadors, and the Moorish influence was profound throughout Spain's colonies.

When I first obtained one of these shellguard espadas, I thought it must be from Spanish colonies in Morocco. One reason was the British blade on it which was clearly from end of the 18th century and the nimcha style hilt that suggested Morocco. The clamshell seems to be of great importance in the Spanish tradition with its association to St.James of Compostela. The bird on the hilt as noted does not seem to be a raptor, so would not be the eagle of Mexican lore, so I am wondering if it might be the pelican or other bird more in line with Christian tradition. With that, the asterisk type star on the inner langet may be a stylized version of the Jerusalem cross, or an eight point cross. The Jerusalem cross had the four arms, with smaller crosses inside each quadrant and may have been interpreted as eight points . Not too sure on that, or if the device had meaning specifically as it is on nonvisible langet.

Teodor is right!

As always my posts are anything but brief, but I really am just sharing information I have found, or observations from researching over the years. I always look forward to hearing other observations and thoughts ...never stop learning!

M ELEY · 12th July 2008, 07:31 AM

Hello Jim!
Saw this auction and thought about bidding on it. Another Brazilian espada, like the one I sent you to look at and featured under that pirate thread. I have seen some of these with straight, thin, relatively short blades and ones with the more classic curved, heavy (often-Brit import) blades. In your opinion, do you believe there is a chance that some of these more "cutlass-looking" bladed types might have seen sea service? After all, Brazil had much traffic leaving it's many ports, not to mention pirate activity. I could see the heavier-bladed examples being used as horseman's sabers, but their size and clumsiness, to me, limits them as a standard sidearm. The hilt still serves well as a cutlass, so I'm holding out for a vote of maritime use!

Jim McDougall · 12th July 2008, 11:44 PM

Hi Mark, its great to hear from you!!
I think that absolutely, in my opinion, these shellguard espadas would have been perfect for piracy in the "Spanish Main" which carried on in the Caribbean and Spanish trade routes well into the 19th century. As we know, heavy British blades are seen on some, while the lighter and more decorated blades may heve been used by the gentry in South America. I had always heard of 'espada anchas' (generally applied) in South America, but until the Brazilian ID, had not seen examples.
There is apparantly a new book out on sea service weapons, cannot think of the title offhand, but its author is named Sim Comfort. It seems highly regarded but is also mucho expensive! I'm hoping to discover more on it, and maybe such examples might show up here.
I'm with you on the maritime plausibility for these shellguards, just as we discussed before

pirates at heart we are !!!

M ELEY · 13th July 2008, 02:53 AM

Thanks for responding, Jim. I knew if I threw out that ole 'pirate' lure, I'd draw you in!

Just wanted to get your important opinion on the possibility of maritime use. I've heard of Mr Comfort before in regards to another past book (perhaps on Confederate swords?), but was unaware he had another out. Most interesting! Unfortunately, just used up my birthday/Christmas/Father's Day/Anniversary/etc,etc,etc, money buying an interesting boarding axe on eBay, so money's too tight to buy any expensive references now. Thank you so much for mentioning it, though, because I'll keep a lookout for it in the future!

Gonzalo G · 13th July 2008, 04:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

These were swords of the gentry, much as the espada ancha came to be in New Spain.The Hispano-Moresque jineta in the form I think of seems to be more in line with traditional swords of the earlier periods, and if I recall correctly had the downturned quillons. I think there is likely more explanation involved in 'jineta' as the Moorish warriors in both the Maghreb and in Andelusia.

Of course, you are right, Jim. I did not intended to say that espada jineta was the one which influenced this specific sword, but to mention the presence of the north afican culture in the infuences excercised by the conquest over the spanish colonies.

I like your extense posts, as I can find more useful explanations and ideas.
My best regards

Gonzalo

Jim McDougall · 13th July 2008, 04:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Of course, you are right, Jim. I did not intended to say that espada jineta was the one which influenced this specific sword, but to mention the presence of the north afican culture in the infuences excercised by the conquest over the spanish colonies.

I like your extense posts, as I can find more useful explanations and ideas.
My best regards

Gonzalo

Hi Gonzalo,
I should have worded that better, of course I thought that was what you meant but wanted to keep things on track as the jineta were beautiful swords reflecting the colorful medieval history of Spain. The espada ancha, had its own charm and beauty as the rugged common sword of the frontier.
Thank you for the kind words, and enjoy expressing my thoughts and ideas on the weapons being discussed, very much looking forward to the same from others, always learning!

10th July 2008, 07:18 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Ancha/Nimcha http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=130234811026 How do you like that?

11th July 2008, 01:47 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Chevalier and Valhun, its great to see observations on motif and I'm with you guys, in always trying to seek potential symbolism imbued in weapons. Although it is tempting to think so, the eye shaped device on the hilt seems to have held some item such as mother of pearl or bone insert that probably aligned with the motif. The evil eye concept prevailed on North African and many Arabian weapons, but not on Spanish colonial. The inside langet for carrying these often in a sash rather than scabbard seem characteristic on these shellguard examples of espada ancha (which is actually rather a misnomer as technically it describes a wide bladed heavy sword commonly used by Soldados de Cuero on Mexican frontier). It is interesting to note the semi circles applied overall in the hilt motif which recall the 'sickle marks' often widely seen on trade blades. Valjhun, the distinct nocked grip on Moroccan sa'if (nimcha) hilts has long been considered in some degree zoomorphic, much like the hilt of the flyssa, and the trilobate hilt of the karabela....but I dont think there has ever been an accord on what creatures these overstylized hilts represent. I had never thought of a horsehead, and would very much like to know of references that specify that identity, it would be fantastic to have that resolved! Amother really unusual thing on the hilt of this example is the very clearly represented bird on the shell, and I'd like to discover more on this. Bird heads of this form in degree are seen on hilts in specific areas in Mexico, and may have to do with the eagle and snake on folklore and legend there, though the head is admittedly not very eagle like. Regardless this might establish an interesting association between Mexico and S.America. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 11th July 2008 at 02:33 AM.

10th July 2008, 09:25 PM	#3
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Nice one for a fair price. Connection nimcha/ancha

10th July 2008, 11:26 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Thank you so much Teodor for the recognition!! I have indeed been fascinated by Spanish colonial weapons for a very long time, and in all honesty, when I first acquired one of these, thought it to be Moroccan. This was mostly due to the same assumption we see with espada/nimcha as noted here, and the nocked grip as on the Moroccan sa'if ('nimcha'). In studying espada anchas, I could see the influence diffused throughout the Spanish trade sphere, mostly as far as the Philippines, but never saw the South American examples. I first confirmed the identification on this particular form in an item appearing in Imperial Auctions last year, and the blade was marked with motif and inscriptions to Brazil. Review on Spanish trade between the Americas in the 19th century reconfirmed the potential diffusion of these, as well as establishing profound connections with Spanish colonies in Morocco. This is a beautiful example, and the bird head as well as some of the geometric devices offer some interesting potential for research. The price the buyer got this for is in my opinion an amazing bargain, these are extremely desirable for Spanish colonial collectors!

11th July 2008, 12:50 AM	#5
chevalier Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 119	is there an evil eye on the handle?

11th July 2008, 01:07 AM	#6
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Just the eye of a horse, I guess. Nimcha hilts are stylized horse heads, if I'm not wrong.

11th July 2008, 05:11 AM	#8
chevalier Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 119	here is another spanish colonial sword http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=180258679308

11th July 2008, 06:06 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Chevalier, thank you for posting this most unusual 'machete' which seems to correspond loosely in some respects to long straight bladed weapons which typically have hilts with the nimcha like nock and fingerstalls. These were a puzzle for some time until we finally resolved they were actually associated with Cuba and the Philippines and often bringbacks from Spanish American War. The doghead hilt is extremely atypical for anything I've seen from Mexico but the squiggled motif repeated in motif are the same as on many of the Cuban/Filipino examples. David, you're really getting good at this 'out of the box' thinking! You bring up great points which are key particularly in studying Indian weapons, where the peacock was extremely important in regalia and other symbolic factors. I'm still not sure of the 'evil eye' association on this hilt, though there is a compelling free association to a human eye (reminding me of the old private eye sign of early detectives). While I have seen the brass stud/nail motif often used on Spanish colonial hilts, and generally in Moorish material culture, I do not recall the eye shape. This seems to be a fixture for holding some type of decorative element in that shape. As I'll say again, I really like your way of thinking, and openly expressing observations in the true sense of weapons research. It seems that too often there is too much attention to auction and acquisition issues.

11th July 2008, 08:33 PM	#11
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Jim, isn´t it a blade a bit too long for an Espada Ancha? I agree those hilts could be related to Africa, as we could find the moorish influence from the Espada Jineta, also used in Spain, on the general form of that hilt. Nimchas are not the only swords with this general type of hilt. I also agree that the eye is part of the head in which the hilt ends. I wonder how much cultural influence did the cristianos nuevos (new christians, or converted moors and jews), exercised into to the culture of the spanish colonies, as they came to America in great numbers. My best regards Gonzalo

11th July 2008, 11:42 PM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Thanks so much for the response Gonzalo. Yes, the blade is indeed too long for the literal 'espada ancha', which in Spanish means of course 'wide, heavy or large' sword from what I understand. The term 'espada ancha' has become generally applied to both civilian sidearms carried by the hidalgos on thier estates as well as the heavy common swords carried by the Soldados de Cuero on the frontier. The application may well be compared to the term nimcha (actually means short sword in Arabic) but the blades on these are typically full length. The grip with nock near the pommel, as seen on these Moroccan sa'ifs did probably influence the Spanish colonial hilts in some degree.It is important to note that the espada ancha hilt was also heavily influenced by 17th century hangers, such as the Hounslow hangers originally intended as hunting hangers. These were swords of the gentry, much as the espada ancha came to be in New Spain.The Hispano-Moresque jineta in the form I think of seems to be more in line with traditional swords of the earlier periods, and if I recall correctly had the downturned quillons. I think there is likely more explanation involved in 'jineta' as the Moorish warriors in both the Maghreb and in Andelusia. There was of course quite considerable influence culturally as you mention, beginning with the Conquistadors, and the Moorish influence was profound throughout Spain's colonies. When I first obtained one of these shellguard espadas, I thought it must be from Spanish colonies in Morocco. One reason was the British blade on it which was clearly from end of the 18th century and the nimcha style hilt that suggested Morocco. The clamshell seems to be of great importance in the Spanish tradition with its association to St.James of Compostela. The bird on the hilt as noted does not seem to be a raptor, so would not be the eagle of Mexican lore, so I am wondering if it might be the pelican or other bird more in line with Christian tradition. With that, the asterisk type star on the inner langet may be a stylized version of the Jerusalem cross, or an eight point cross. The Jerusalem cross had the four arms, with smaller crosses inside each quadrant and may have been interpreted as eight points . Not too sure on that, or if the device had meaning specifically as it is on nonvisible langet. Teodor is right! As always my posts are anything but brief, but I really am just sharing information I have found, or observations from researching over the years. I always look forward to hearing other observations and thoughts ...never stop learning!

12th July 2008, 07:31 AM	#13
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,093	Hello Jim! Saw this auction and thought about bidding on it. Another Brazilian espada, like the one I sent you to look at and featured under that pirate thread. I have seen some of these with straight, thin, relatively short blades and ones with the more classic curved, heavy (often-Brit import) blades. In your opinion, do you believe there is a chance that some of these more "cutlass-looking" bladed types might have seen sea service? After all, Brazil had much traffic leaving it's many ports, not to mention pirate activity. I could see the heavier-bladed examples being used as horseman's sabers, but their size and clumsiness, to me, limits them as a standard sidearm. The hilt still serves well as a cutlass, so I'm holding out for a vote of maritime use!

12th July 2008, 11:44 PM	#14
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Hi Mark, its great to hear from you!! I think that absolutely, in my opinion, these shellguard espadas would have been perfect for piracy in the "Spanish Main" which carried on in the Caribbean and Spanish trade routes well into the 19th century. As we know, heavy British blades are seen on some, while the lighter and more decorated blades may heve been used by the gentry in South America. I had always heard of 'espada anchas' (generally applied) in South America, but until the Brazilian ID, had not seen examples. There is apparantly a new book out on sea service weapons, cannot think of the title offhand, but its author is named Sim Comfort. It seems highly regarded but is also mucho expensive! I'm hoping to discover more on it, and maybe such examples might show up here. I'm with you on the maritime plausibility for these shellguards, just as we discussed before pirates at heart we are !!!

13th July 2008, 02:53 AM	#15
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,093	Thanks for responding, Jim. I knew if I threw out that ole 'pirate' lure, I'd draw you in! Just wanted to get your important opinion on the possibility of maritime use. I've heard of Mr Comfort before in regards to another past book (perhaps on Confederate swords?), but was unaware he had another out. Most interesting! Unfortunately, just used up my birthday/Christmas/Father's Day/Anniversary/etc,etc,etc, money buying an interesting boarding axe on eBay, so money's too tight to buy any expensive references now. Thank you so much for mentioning it, though, because I'll keep a lookout for it in the future!