Visayan oddity

Spunjer · 30th June 2005, 07:12 PM

doesn't quite know what to call this. ibeam calls it Binalibon. i say it's Talinangon. whatever it is, it's different. the hilt is typical Panay style but in miniature version. even the scabbard looks like a typical binangon style. what's different is the blade, which reminds me of the talibon. pretty neat, actually. OAL is 15.5"
blade is 11"

comments?

Ian · 30th June 2005, 08:18 PM

Spunjer:

Is the blade on this one chisel ground in the usual Visayan fashion?

If so, is this not a Western Visayas (Panay, Negros) sword variant? Do we need to invent a new name for it?

It is uncommon to see this abbreviated kakatua style pommel on a wide-bellied chopper, but I have seen at least one other example of this combination.

Ian.

themorningstar · 30th June 2005, 08:47 PM

its a sundang...

Spunjer · 30th June 2005, 08:50 PM

ian:
yep, it's chiseled. at first i thought it was jury rigged, but it looks like it hasn't been tampered with...

Spunjer · 30th June 2005, 08:56 PM

Quote:

its a sundang...

lol, true. ask a manong from panay of what it is and that's prolly what he'll tell ya

zelbone · 1st July 2005, 03:56 AM

Actually, that's a pretty common blade, Spunger. It has has all the trademarks of an Ilonggo bolo: typical scabbard with leather throatpiece and brass bands, knob hilt pommel, long iron or brass ferrule, chiselled-edge. Even the blade form is common. Sure, you could call it a talibong, but a talibong denotes a blade specifically made for fighting. The blades are usually longer and more slender and a handguard would most likely be present as well. Your example is more of a general purpose bolo that can be used for anything from fighting, cutting up brush, to chopping up the lechon for dinner

! If you want to get more nomenclature specific with that particular bolo of yours it would also depend on what region of Panay or Negros that bolo is from. The Ilonggo term would most commonly be called just a sundang or itak or even binangon...although we normally think of a binangon as the type with the straight-edge and a spine that curves down to the edge like a sheepsfoot blade on a pocket knife. And even then are we talking Ilonggo terms from Iloilo or Negros. To add more confusion...the fighting version of a binangon is a ginungting. In Aklan, your bolo would be called a sanduko which is your general purpose work bolo. In Capiz, the Sanduko refers to the older form of diety-hilt tenegre that we know. Are you confused now? Anyways, here is a picture of three Ilonggo blades. The top one is a talibong from Mandurrio, Iloilo circa 1942. It has all the Ilonggo trademarks as mentioned before and the more slender fighting blade and crossguard. The sundang/sanduko is in the center and is similar to your example but slightly older. The bottom sword is a recently made binangon I grabbed out of my mother's gardening bucket. The blade and hilt is typical as well as the scabbard, but it has rattan wrap instead of brass/aluminum bands and a pigskin throat-wrap with the hair still intact. When Shelley and I were in Hinigaran, Negros, he bought a couple newly made binangons/sundang at a market that were a little cruder than these, but suprisingly very similar. I think he paid a couple hundred pesos for each one...about $3. Nothing fancy, but quite functional. Maybe he'll post pics of these sometime. Finally, the last picture is a really old old bolo of the "plamenko" form. Morningstar is selling newly made ones that are very similar...this is an original that I wanted to post for comparison and to show that there are other blade forms in the Visayas besides your sanduko or binangon form. Hope this helps and doesn't confuse you more.

themorningstar · 1st July 2005, 05:41 AM

crude??? yes... ugly?? yes... cheap??? you wouldnt begin to understand... worthy??? a "competitor's" talibong snapped in half against it... enjoy!

Spunjer · 1st July 2005, 06:57 AM

zel,
i was inclined to call this piece a binangon or sundang, as themorningstar mentioned; but this piece is more of a knife than anything else. the blade at its widest is 1 and 1/8 inch wide and the base's width closest to the ferrule is only half an inch. again, the blade is only 11 inches long. would this be more of a kutsilyo or lansitas in definition, or would you still consider this as a binangon/sundang? i will try to post a picture of this baby next to my binangon for comparison...

the binalibon/talinangon was actually a lighthearted jab to the way this piece was put together.

your sanduko definition is definitely an eye opener. that's one term i've never heard until my trip to museo iloilo. thanks. as always, you are the man when it comes to this kinda stuff.

Spunjer · 1st July 2005, 02:28 PM

here's that little thing compared to my 'everyday chore' binangon and good ol' bathead...

zelbone · 1st July 2005, 05:04 PM

Hey morningstar! Those are the same bolos that Shelley and the guys picked-up in Hinigaran. Yeah, they came in a variety of blade forms and sure they were sort of crude and ugly, but I wouldn't hesitate grabbing one if I had to cross blades with another. They do the job and they do it well

!

Spunger, I see what you mean. I didn't realize how small it was, but then again I wouldn't get hung up on what you would call it. Kutsilyo and lansitas would work and be totally acceptable, as well as sundang or sanduko. Again this depends where you are and what dialect you're speaking. Personally, I would just use the term daga...especially if I had a talibong, tenegre, or ginunting in my other hand as my espada

.

I actually have a little daga very similar to yours, but with the deity hilt and a more bilog type blade. Check out my little daga compared to it's larger espada counterparts. While we're talking about Visayan dagas (or kutsilyos or lansitas), they also come in a variety of forms as well. I might have to post pics of several Visayan dagas I have...you know...to keep my left hand occupied

.

themorningstar · 1st July 2005, 05:25 PM

zel!!!
yea... ya gotta love em... oh and thanks for posting the pic of the plamingko, no one wants to accept that its a real blade form since it doesnt look like a talibong or ginunting. oh and those are real knots on the stick...
holla at me later...

Spunjer · 1st July 2005, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Personally, I would just use the term daga...

cebuano man na, lagi.

yes, post pics of those little fellers, if you don't mind. your right, tho, it does feel good paired up with the bathead. noticed i only said it feels good; now if only know how to work these...

zelbone · 2nd July 2005, 04:06 AM

Yo, Morningstar! I figured you'd get a lot of "what is it?" responses to your plamingko. It goes to show you that not every Visayan sword is a talibong, ginunting, garab, or sansibar. You and I know that there are even more sword forms in the Visayas that most people have never heard of or seen. The plamingko is one stealthy blade...kinda reminds me of a Moro barung. And those two bolos you posted are the same one's the guys picked up in Hinigaran, Negros Occidental...probably made around Bacolod. The guy's love them...makes me regret not picking one up

.

Spunger...
Dude...you know I'm not Cebuano! I'm Batangueno/Aklanon!

Anyways, here's a few dagas (ok kutsilyos) from the Visayas...mostly Ilonggo. The first three are deity hilt tenegre dagas. The top one was posted earlier with the bilog blade which is chisel-edged. The center daga has a triangular blade which is flat on one side and beveled on other side. The double-deity hilt has a regular double beveled blade. The other three daggas are non-tenegre or deity forms. The top one has your typical Visayan (Ilonggo) hilt...blind tang and iron ferrule. The blade is also chisel-edged...it's flat on the other side. The scabbard looks more modern with a belt slide and is made of rawhide...some hairs are also still intact. The other two are kris dagas...the bottom one being quite long.

Spunjer · 2nd July 2005, 02:50 PM

wow

, thanks zel. nice variety. visayan dagas and such are rarely talked about here, so not much is really known about them. the kris dagas: are they visayans as well?

is the plamingko chiseled? it does have a pretty mean form. look wicked...

themorningstar,

i noticed that your bolo's blade is black. is that by design? i've been trying to find a way to darken my new binangon blade as well. is there any special way to make it that way (darkened)? thanks...

zelbone · 2nd July 2005, 09:20 PM

Spunger, if you want to blacken the blade i'd suggest a deep etch, but you won't get it to look like the morningstars blades. It is, I guess you could call it, by design. That's straight from the forge without polishing. My mom's binangon above is the same way. Only the flat side and the bevel are polished.

And yes, those kris dagas are Visayan. If you notice their scabbards they're of Visayan design and are covered with horn scales. The larger one has a few intact still, but the smaller one has lost the scales long ago. Both are of blind tang construction. Enclosed is another pic of the two dagas with a larger Visayan kris with a deity tenegre pueo. The kris sword and either one of these dagas would make a unique and formidable espada y daga combination.

Spunjer · 3rd July 2005, 01:52 PM

nice, zel, nice. wasn't aware about the existence of kris blades being relatively prevalent in visayas. thanks...

Battara · 3rd July 2005, 08:23 PM

I'm with Spunger. I had wondered if there were some influence of wavy forms, but never new about them from the Visayas. I am aware (and have) a wavy bladed Katipunan government Ilokano piece (that Spunger has seen). Yet Ilocos del Norte is way up in the north of the PI. Do you think the wavy bladed form was once widespread, or was it Moro influenced?

30th June 2005, 07:12 PM	#1
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	Visayan oddity doesn't quite know what to call this. ibeam calls it Binalibon. i say it's Talinangon. whatever it is, it's different. the hilt is typical Panay style but in miniature version. even the scabbard looks like a typical binangon style. what's different is the blade, which reminds me of the talibon. pretty neat, actually. OAL is 15.5" blade is 11" comments? Attached Images

1st July 2005, 03:56 AM	#6
zelbone Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: VISAYAS and MINDANAO Posts: 169	Ilonggo blades Actually, that's a pretty common blade, Spunger. It has has all the trademarks of an Ilonggo bolo: typical scabbard with leather throatpiece and brass bands, knob hilt pommel, long iron or brass ferrule, chiselled-edge. Even the blade form is common. Sure, you could call it a talibong, but a talibong denotes a blade specifically made for fighting. The blades are usually longer and more slender and a handguard would most likely be present as well. Your example is more of a general purpose bolo that can be used for anything from fighting, cutting up brush, to chopping up the lechon for dinner ! If you want to get more nomenclature specific with that particular bolo of yours it would also depend on what region of Panay or Negros that bolo is from. The Ilonggo term would most commonly be called just a sundang or itak or even binangon...although we normally think of a binangon as the type with the straight-edge and a spine that curves down to the edge like a sheepsfoot blade on a pocket knife. And even then are we talking Ilonggo terms from Iloilo or Negros. To add more confusion...the fighting version of a binangon is a ginungting. In Aklan, your bolo would be called a sanduko which is your general purpose work bolo. In Capiz, the Sanduko refers to the older form of diety-hilt tenegre that we know. Are you confused now? Anyways, here is a picture of three Ilonggo blades. The top one is a talibong from Mandurrio, Iloilo circa 1942. It has all the Ilonggo trademarks as mentioned before and the more slender fighting blade and crossguard. The sundang/sanduko is in the center and is similar to your example but slightly older. The bottom sword is a recently made binangon I grabbed out of my mother's gardening bucket. The blade and hilt is typical as well as the scabbard, but it has rattan wrap instead of brass/aluminum bands and a pigskin throat-wrap with the hair still intact. When Shelley and I were in Hinigaran, Negros, he bought a couple newly made binangons/sundang at a market that were a little cruder than these, but suprisingly very similar. I think he paid a couple hundred pesos for each one...about $3. Nothing fancy, but quite functional. Maybe he'll post pics of these sometime. Finally, the last picture is a really old old bolo of the "plamenko" form. Morningstar is selling newly made ones that are very similar...this is an original that I wanted to post for comparison and to show that there are other blade forms in the Visayas besides your sanduko or binangon form. Hope this helps and doesn't confuse you more. Attached Images

1st July 2005, 05:41 AM	#7
themorningstar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 55	crude??? yes... ugly?? yes... cheap??? you wouldnt begin to understand... worthy??? a "competitor's" talibong snapped in half against it... enjoy! Attached Images

1st July 2005, 02:28 PM	#9
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	here's that little thing compared to my 'everyday chore' binangon and good ol' bathead... Attached Images

1st July 2005, 05:04 PM	#10
zelbone Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: VISAYAS and MINDANAO Posts: 169	Hey morningstar! Those are the same bolos that Shelley and the guys picked-up in Hinigaran. Yeah, they came in a variety of blade forms and sure they were sort of crude and ugly, but I wouldn't hesitate grabbing one if I had to cross blades with another. They do the job and they do it well ! Spunger, I see what you mean. I didn't realize how small it was, but then again I wouldn't get hung up on what you would call it. Kutsilyo and lansitas would work and be totally acceptable, as well as sundang or sanduko. Again this depends where you are and what dialect you're speaking. Personally, I would just use the term daga...especially if I had a talibong, tenegre, or ginunting in my other hand as my espada . I actually have a little daga very similar to yours, but with the deity hilt and a more bilog type blade. Check out my little daga compared to it's larger espada counterparts. While we're talking about Visayan dagas (or kutsilyos or lansitas), they also come in a variety of forms as well. I might have to post pics of several Visayan dagas I have...you know...to keep my left hand occupied . Attached Images

30th June 2005, 08:18 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,203	Spunjer: Is the blade on this one chisel ground in the usual Visayan fashion? If so, is this not a Western Visayas (Panay, Negros) sword variant? Do we need to invent a new name for it? It is uncommon to see this abbreviated kakatua style pommel on a wide-bellied chopper, but I have seen at least one other example of this combination. Ian.

30th June 2005, 08:47 PM	#3
themorningstar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 55	its a sundang...

30th June 2005, 08:50 PM	#4
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	ian: yep, it's chiseled. at first i thought it was jury rigged, but it looks like it hasn't been tampered with...

1st July 2005, 06:57 AM	#8
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	zel, i was inclined to call this piece a binangon or sundang, as themorningstar mentioned; but this piece is more of a knife than anything else. the blade at its widest is 1 and 1/8 inch wide and the base's width closest to the ferrule is only half an inch. again, the blade is only 11 inches long. would this be more of a kutsilyo or lansitas in definition, or would you still consider this as a binangon/sundang? i will try to post a picture of this baby next to my binangon for comparison... the binalibon/talinangon was actually a lighthearted jab to the way this piece was put together. your sanduko definition is definitely an eye opener. that's one term i've never heard until my trip to museo iloilo. thanks. as always, you are the man when it comes to this kinda stuff.

1st July 2005, 05:25 PM	#11
themorningstar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 55	zel!!! yea... ya gotta love em... oh and thanks for posting the pic of the plamingko, no one wants to accept that its a real blade form since it doesnt look like a talibong or ginunting. oh and those are real knots on the stick... holla at me later... Attached Images

2nd July 2005, 04:06 AM	#13
zelbone Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: VISAYAS and MINDANAO Posts: 169	Dagas, Kutsilyso, Lansitas, punyals...whatever Yo, Morningstar! I figured you'd get a lot of "what is it?" responses to your plamingko. It goes to show you that not every Visayan sword is a talibong, ginunting, garab, or sansibar. You and I know that there are even more sword forms in the Visayas that most people have never heard of or seen. The plamingko is one stealthy blade...kinda reminds me of a Moro barung. And those two bolos you posted are the same one's the guys picked up in Hinigaran, Negros Occidental...probably made around Bacolod. The guy's love them...makes me regret not picking one up . Spunger... Dude...you know I'm not Cebuano! I'm Batangueno/Aklanon! Anyways, here's a few dagas (ok kutsilyos) from the Visayas...mostly Ilonggo. The first three are deity hilt tenegre dagas. The top one was posted earlier with the bilog blade which is chisel-edged. The center daga has a triangular blade which is flat on one side and beveled on other side. The double-deity hilt has a regular double beveled blade. The other three daggas are non-tenegre or deity forms. The top one has your typical Visayan (Ilonggo) hilt...blind tang and iron ferrule. The blade is also chisel-edged...it's flat on the other side. The scabbard looks more modern with a belt slide and is made of rawhide...some hairs are also still intact. The other two are kris dagas...the bottom one being quite long. Attached Images

2nd July 2005, 02:50 PM	#14
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	wow , thanks zel. nice variety. visayan dagas and such are rarely talked about here, so not much is really known about them. the kris dagas: are they visayans as well? is the plamingko chiseled? it does have a pretty mean form. look wicked... themorningstar, i noticed that your bolo's blade is black. is that by design? i've been trying to find a way to darken my new binangon blade as well. is there any special way to make it that way (darkened)? thanks... Last edited by Spunjer; 2nd July 2005 at 03:04 PM.

2nd July 2005, 09:20 PM	#15
zelbone Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: VISAYAS and MINDANAO Posts: 169	Spunger, if you want to blacken the blade i'd suggest a deep etch, but you won't get it to look like the morningstars blades. It is, I guess you could call it, by design. That's straight from the forge without polishing. My mom's binangon above is the same way. Only the flat side and the bevel are polished. And yes, those kris dagas are Visayan. If you notice their scabbards they're of Visayan design and are covered with horn scales. The larger one has a few intact still, but the smaller one has lost the scales long ago. Both are of blind tang construction. Enclosed is another pic of the two dagas with a larger Visayan kris with a deity tenegre pueo. The kris sword and either one of these dagas would make a unique and formidable espada y daga combination. Attached Images

3rd July 2005, 01:52 PM	#16
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	nice, zel, nice. wasn't aware about the existence of kris blades being relatively prevalent in visayas. thanks...

3rd July 2005, 08:23 PM	#17
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	I'm with Spunger. I had wondered if there were some influence of wavy forms, but never new about them from the Visayas. I am aware (and have) a wavy bladed Katipunan government Ilokano piece (that Spunger has seen). Yet Ilocos del Norte is way up in the north of the PI. Do you think the wavy bladed form was once widespread, or was it Moro influenced?