19thc Indo-Persian or 20thc tourist?

harrywagner · 10th April 2016, 08:50 PM

I would like to solicit comments about this knife. It was sold as 19thc Indo-Persian. I'm not sure what to make of it. I can't rule out that it is 20thc tourist. Please let me know what you think. TIA!

Harry

kahnjar1 · 10th April 2016, 09:20 PM

IMHO it is tourist

harrywagner · 11th April 2016, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

IMHO it is tourist

Thanks Stu. You may be right, but three things bother me about it being tourist: 1) it is not as "pretty" as most of the tourist items I have seen, and 2) it shows significant wear, and 3) I have never seen another like it. If it was tourist or replica wouldn't they have made more than one?

I wonder if it is not a fake?

Thanks again for the help. Much appreciated.

Harry

mariusgmioc · 11th April 2016, 06:21 PM

The stamped maker's mark on the blade makes me doubt that is a tourist thing, or a "fake" (by the way, can you define "fake?").

Moreover, I doubt that is Indo-Persian .

Judging by the shape and workmanship, I am more inclined to say it is Syria or Turkey.

But I am definitely far from being a specialist so take my opinion more like a guess.

harrywagner · 11th April 2016, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

The stamped maker's mark on the blade makes me doubt that is a tourist thing, or a "fake" (by the way, can you define "fake?").

Moreover, I doubt that is Indo-Persian .

Judging by the shape and workmanship, I am more inclined to say it is Syria or Turkey.

But I am definitely far from being a specialist so take my opinion more like a guess.

Thanks. It is an odd piece. It has a good blade. Hopefully someone can provide a translation. I believe the script and makers mark are both Arabic.

kahnjar1 · 11th April 2016, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

The stamped maker's mark on the blade makes me doubt that is a tourist thing, or a "fake" (by the way, can you define "fake?").

Moreover, I doubt that is Indo-Persian .

Judging by the shape and workmanship, I am more inclined to say it is Syria or Turkey.

But I am definitely far from being a specialist so take my opinion more like a guess.

Hi Harry,
As Marius says, the stamp on the blade COULD suggest non tourist but then there are many "cartouches" and false stamps on blades of items which ARE tourist. The "engraving" on the other side of the blade looks a bit rough compared with the stamp.
Your comment re "significant wear" is correct, but often the castings are of poor quality and created in the first place to look old and worn.....but what about the leather?? on the scabbard which looks very new from the pics.
Finally just because one has not seen another piece like it does not mean that it is original.
I also would be interested as to what you define as "FAKE" as opposed to "tourist". To me the term is used to describe an item which is made as a copy of an original so that large amounts of money can be made by selling it as an original. I do not see something like this with relatively low return being made as a fake.
I reserve my original decision.
Stu

Kubur · 11th April 2016, 10:26 PM

Hi Harry,

I agree with all the things said above, the blade, Tourist and not fake...
I think you should give us more pictures of the blade and inscriptions.

Best,
Kubur

Kubur · 11th April 2016, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi Harry,

I agree with all the things said above, the blade, Tourist and not fake...
I think you should give us more pictures of the blade and inscriptions.

Best,
Kubur

I zoomed on the blade and I'm almost sure that's not Arabic, it's an attempt to look like but it's not Arabic. It's probably the same for the stamp...

Bob A · 11th April 2016, 11:10 PM

Brass fittings are deliberately worn down to appear old, but it's done too evenly.
Blade is far too new, with no real signs of age equivalent to the rest of the package.
I can't speak to origin, but it appears to me as a deliberate attempt to mislead.

harrywagner · 11th April 2016, 11:14 PM

Possibly. It might be one of the many Indian languages and not Arabic at all, or a combination of the two. I will post some better photos later today.

I consider an item a fake when it pretends to be something it is not (fake Rolex, newly manufactured "antique", etc.). And I agree that price can be a factor in determining if an item is a fake or real. However, I would excersise caution there. Enough people counterfeit $20 bills these days that many cashiers examine them before accepting them.

harrywagner · 12th April 2016, 01:50 AM

Hopefully these are better. Here is how the seller described it:

"5 3/8 curved d.e. blade. The front with large chiseled panel incorporating numerous Arabic or Hindi characters, likely identifying the owner and date. Reverse with crisp maker's mark. One piece horn hilt with white metal mounts. Black leather covered scabbard with matching WM mounts".

If it is a tourist item wouldn't you expect to see others similar to this occasionally? They would not make just one, right?

A.alnakkas · 12th April 2016, 06:06 AM

Yes that's not Arabic but obviously who ever wrote it tried to make it seem Arabic. I also think this piece is a tourist piece.

Robert · 12th April 2016, 07:11 AM

I hate to say it, but just by looking at the overall fit and finish of this piece I must also agree that it is a tourist piece. JMHO

Best,
Robert

harrywagner · 12th April 2016, 12:49 PM

Thanks everyone. Comments appreciated.

harrywagner · 12th April 2016, 05:12 PM

I am uncertain if I am allowed to say this or not, but will try. The moderators can remove it if is not allowed.

I purchased this item and the "beater sword" in Michigan. Both were sold as 19thc.

kahnjar1 · 12th April 2016, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harrywagner

I am uncertain if I am allowed to say this or not, but will try. The moderators can remove it if is not allowed.

I purchased this item and the "beater sword" in Michigan. Both were sold as 19thc.

Harry, just a comment which you may or may not take heed of. If you look at many of the listings on a well known website, you will see that there are a lot of items described as older than they actually appear, or in fact are, to try and extract the most from any buyer. IMHO try and stick to reputable/well known sellers either on the internet or elsewhere, and hopefully you will not get stung so often. However it is the buyer who in the end must accept the blame if things are not as they are described. The ultimate of course is to have a "return" agreement so that you can return the item if it is not as you thought.
Collecting is something which establishes knowledge over time, but as has been said before it can be fatal to rush into a purchase without doing your homework first.
Stu

Bob A · 12th April 2016, 10:11 PM

If I might be permitted to add to Kahnjar1's reply, I've found it very useful, as a relative amateur in the field, to spend a lot of time looking at commercial sites which are well known for the quality of their items, and the accuracy of their descriptions. Of course the images on this site are also of great value, though I'm late in arriving here.

While it is impossible to see many of these objects in hand, I've been able to refine my perceptions by front-loading my visual memory with images of the Real Thing. It's surprising in a way to see how that has paid off when perusing sites like the giant internet auction bazaar: fakes and such seem to spring out as I view them.

Battara · 12th April 2016, 10:21 PM

I would also add to these 2 great ideas these:

BOOKS: many have been mentioned on this forum and are used as reference by experts, and us.

MUSEUMS: whether in person or on the web, check these out as well for good quality examples.

Final note on the inscriptions: They look like there are acid etched - a sign of lower quality and easy to do for tourists.

kahnjar1 · 13th April 2016, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob A

If I might be permitted to add to Kahnjar1's reply, I've found it very useful, as a relative amateur in the field, to spend a lot of time looking at commercial sites which are well known for the quality of their items, and the accuracy of their descriptions. Of course the images on this site are also of great value, though I'm late in arriving here.

While it is impossible to see many of these objects in hand, I've been able to refine my perceptions by front-loading my visual memory with images of the Real Thing. It's surprising in a way to see how that has paid off when perusing sites like the giant internet auction bazaar: fakes and such seem to spring out as I view them.

Hi Bob, and thanks for the response. I note your comment that you consider yourself an amateur....please don't short change yourself. We are all amateurs really as we are always learning. My point was rather directed at those who don't seem to want to learn despite having the tools to learn at their fingertips, whether it be from fellow collectors, books and the wide range of information on the internet.
The result of course is usually disaster in some form or other.
Stu

mariusgmioc · 13th April 2016, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Harry, just a comment which you may or may not take heed of. If you look at many of the listings on a well known website, you will see that there are a lot of items described as older than they actually appear, or in fact are, to try and extract the most from any buyer. IMHO try and stick to reputable/well known sellers either on the internet or elsewhere, and hopefully you will not get stung so often. However it is the buyer who in the end must accept the blame if things are not as they are described. The ultimate of course is to have a "return" agreement so that you can return the item if it is not as you thought.
Collecting is something which establishes knowledge over time, but as has been said before it can be fatal to rush into a purchase without doing your homework first.
Stu

Well said, tested and proofed on own skin... or better said on own wallet!

Luckily you are wrong on one it is not "fatal" to rush into a purchase without doing your homework, but only costly.

PS: I try to stick to reputable dealers and auction houses but I very often find also them to be wrong when describing and item.

10th April 2016, 08:50 PM	#1
harrywagner Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 373	19thc Indo-Persian or 20thc tourist? I would like to solicit comments about this knife. It was sold as 19thc Indo-Persian. I'm not sure what to make of it. I can't rule out that it is 20thc tourist. Please let me know what you think. TIA! Harry Attached Images

12th April 2016, 01:50 AM	#11
harrywagner Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 373	Hopefully these are better. Here is how the seller described it: "5 3/8 curved d.e. blade. The front with large chiseled panel incorporating numerous Arabic or Hindi characters, likely identifying the owner and date. Reverse with crisp maker's mark. One piece horn hilt with white metal mounts. Black leather covered scabbard with matching WM mounts". If it is a tourist item wouldn't you expect to see others similar to this occasionally? They would not make just one, right? Attached Images

12th April 2016, 05:12 PM	#15
harrywagner Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 373	I am uncertain if I am allowed to say this or not, but will try. The moderators can remove it if is not allowed. I purchased this item and the "beater sword" in Michigan. Both were sold as 19thc. Last edited by Robert; 12th April 2016 at 05:36 PM.

10th April 2016, 09:20 PM	#2
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	IMHO it is tourist

11th April 2016, 06:21 PM	#4
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	The stamped maker's mark on the blade makes me doubt that is a tourist thing, or a "fake" (by the way, can you define "fake?"). Moreover, I doubt that is Indo-Persian . Judging by the shape and workmanship, I am more inclined to say it is Syria or Turkey. But I am definitely far from being a specialist so take my opinion more like a guess.

11th April 2016, 10:26 PM	#7
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi Harry, I agree with all the things said above, the blade, Tourist and not fake... I think you should give us more pictures of the blade and inscriptions. Best, Kubur

11th April 2016, 11:10 PM	#9
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 427	Brass fittings are deliberately worn down to appear old, but it's done too evenly. Blade is far too new, with no real signs of age equivalent to the rest of the package. I can't speak to origin, but it appears to me as a deliberate attempt to mislead.

11th April 2016, 11:14 PM	#10
harrywagner Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 373	Possibly. It might be one of the many Indian languages and not Arabic at all, or a combination of the two. I will post some better photos later today. I consider an item a fake when it pretends to be something it is not (fake Rolex, newly manufactured "antique", etc.). And I agree that price can be a factor in determining if an item is a fake or real. However, I would excersise caution there. Enough people counterfeit $20 bills these days that many cashiers examine them before accepting them.

12th April 2016, 06:06 AM	#12
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Yes that's not Arabic but obviously who ever wrote it tried to make it seem Arabic. I also think this piece is a tourist piece.

12th April 2016, 07:11 AM	#13
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	I hate to say it, but just by looking at the overall fit and finish of this piece I must also agree that it is a tourist piece. JMHO Best, Robert

12th April 2016, 12:49 PM	#14
harrywagner Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 373	Thanks everyone. Comments appreciated.

12th April 2016, 10:11 PM	#17
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 427	If I might be permitted to add to Kahnjar1's reply, I've found it very useful, as a relative amateur in the field, to spend a lot of time looking at commercial sites which are well known for the quality of their items, and the accuracy of their descriptions. Of course the images on this site are also of great value, though I'm late in arriving here. While it is impossible to see many of these objects in hand, I've been able to refine my perceptions by front-loading my visual memory with images of the Real Thing. It's surprising in a way to see how that has paid off when perusing sites like the giant internet auction bazaar: fakes and such seem to spring out as I view them.

12th April 2016, 10:21 PM	#18
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	I would also add to these 2 great ideas these: BOOKS: many have been mentioned on this forum and are used as reference by experts, and us. MUSEUMS: whether in person or on the web, check these out as well for good quality examples. Final note on the inscriptions: They look like there are acid etched - a sign of lower quality and easy to do for tourists.