Help to Identify African Knives / Swords

Rod Charters · 12th October 2007, 09:40 PM

Hi need some help in identifying the below 4 swords knives.
1. This was sold to me some years ago in Nairobi as a Congoles chiefs knife. At the longest it measures some 87 cm. It has good pattina on the wooden section and on the blades has rather crude patterns of circles and lines but also what appear to be some figures. These patterns appear on both sides of the blades but on one side very difficult to see due to heavy rusting. There is also a crack on one side of the wood that has been stitched by what appears to be aluminium.
2. The 2nd is a sword that I recently purchased in kenya and was sold as a Dokoma knife. Now I've never heard of the Dokoma (Pokoma yes) nor can I find any reference. Except at the tip the leather binding holding the scabbard is quite new. I thought the blade was quite interesting being double edged with a very pronounced central ridge runing the length. The total length of the sword is 67 cm and the blade length is 54 cm. Can anyone shed some light on it? I apologise for te rather poor photo's of this one.
3. The 3rd knife als recently purchased was described as a Meru Simi used during the Mau Mau. The blade seems to made of cast iron and is almost rounded (but not quite) near the hilt. It then flattens out towards the end. It measures some 73 cm total length with a blade length of 61 cm.
4. The 4th purchased some years ago looks like some sort of Congolese leaf knife with an animal fur (possible serval or civet cat) covering the hilt. The blade is quite rusted and a bit thin with some flexibility.

Best Regards
Rod

Rod Charters · 12th October 2007, 09:45 PM

2nd sword

Rod Charters · 12th October 2007, 09:48 PM

3 and 4

Tim Simmons · 12th October 2007, 09:59 PM

Hi Rod,
Instant service here tonight.

No 1. looks very much like a modern copy of a Zande and neighbours throwing knife.

No 2. Is what is known as a Shi knife, interesting that you show this as some people may say that a certain style indicates more age but seeing your example i am not sure that holds much water.

No 3. Is a seme could well be before the Mau Mau.

No 4. Is what Believe is a Ngombe/ Poto? knife from the Congo and look like it may be old.

Rod Charters · 12th October 2007, 10:55 PM

Hi Tim, thanks for the instant service. Shame about the throwing knife as always had the impression it was quite old especially given the amount of rust encrusted on the reverse side. Don't quite understand your comment on the Shi knife. By the way where do these knives come from?

Rod

Tim Simmons · 13th October 2007, 11:17 AM

Hi Rod when I say modern in reference to the Zande type throwing throwing knife I do not me recent. In my opinion I would not think it pre 1950.

As far as I know the Shi type of sword may have a large footprint. South East Congo certainly I have a suspicion the form travels further possibly to parts of Ruanda, Tanzania and even Northern Zambia, just my opinion. I am still after one like yours. I think it is a regional style rather than a style suggestive of greater age. I have this one.

Rod Charters · 13th October 2007, 05:53 PM

Tim thanks thats very interesting. Coming back to the throwing knife. In its current form does not seem very practical to throw 1. because of its weight and 2. because of the central wooden section. Do you think this knife has been converted from a throwing knife into something more decorative. Thanks Rod.

Tim Simmons · 13th October 2007, 07:41 PM

Rod you could follow this old thread.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...throwing+knife
The TK you have does appear to have been cut rather than forged. The wood casing is quite odd I wonder what Luc or Freddy may have to say. Although a little rough compered to older weapon and prestige versions I would hesitate from saying it was just a decorative thing perhaps for tourists. Perhaps pm Luc?

Rod Charters · 13th October 2007, 11:05 PM

Thanks Tim thats been very helpful. I'll PM Luc,

Rod

Luc LEFEBVRE · 13th October 2007, 11:35 PM

Hi Rod,
Tim is right, this is a poor copy of a Kipinga (sorry), the major throwing knife of the Zande who lives in the north-east of Congo (RDC) just under the Ubangi river.
They where great warriors with a big organized army and have a specific shield where they store 2 or 3 throwing knives.
The TK never have wood handle, only "flexible" material, and just at the base of the stem for a good grip, not in the middle.
The engraving on the blade ,which looks like a man, is a chameleon, a totemic animal and a symbol of a very fast strike.
The Kipinga is a good TK which has a good comportment in flight.
http://lulef.free.fr/html/zande.html

Luc

Rod Charters · 13th October 2007, 11:44 PM

Thanks to both of you and good to know next time I get offered an "African Chiefs Knife".

12th October 2007, 09:40 PM	#1
Rod Charters Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 48	Help to Identify African Knives / Swords Hi need some help in identifying the below 4 swords knives. 1. This was sold to me some years ago in Nairobi as a Congoles chiefs knife. At the longest it measures some 87 cm. It has good pattina on the wooden section and on the blades has rather crude patterns of circles and lines but also what appear to be some figures. These patterns appear on both sides of the blades but on one side very difficult to see due to heavy rusting. There is also a crack on one side of the wood that has been stitched by what appears to be aluminium. 2. The 2nd is a sword that I recently purchased in kenya and was sold as a Dokoma knife. Now I've never heard of the Dokoma (Pokoma yes) nor can I find any reference. Except at the tip the leather binding holding the scabbard is quite new. I thought the blade was quite interesting being double edged with a very pronounced central ridge runing the length. The total length of the sword is 67 cm and the blade length is 54 cm. Can anyone shed some light on it? I apologise for te rather poor photo's of this one. 3. The 3rd knife als recently purchased was described as a Meru Simi used during the Mau Mau. The blade seems to made of cast iron and is almost rounded (but not quite) near the hilt. It then flattens out towards the end. It measures some 73 cm total length with a blade length of 61 cm. 4. The 4th purchased some years ago looks like some sort of Congolese leaf knife with an animal fur (possible serval or civet cat) covering the hilt. The blade is quite rusted and a bit thin with some flexibility. Best Regards Rod Attached Images

12th October 2007, 09:45 PM	#2
Rod Charters Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 48	2nd sword Attached Images

12th October 2007, 09:48 PM	#3
Rod Charters Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 48	3 and 4 Attached Images

13th October 2007, 11:35 PM	#10
Luc LEFEBVRE Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: France Posts: 473	Hi Rod, Tim is right, this is a poor copy of a Kipinga (sorry), the major throwing knife of the Zande who lives in the north-east of Congo (RDC) just under the Ubangi river. They where great warriors with a big organized army and have a specific shield where they store 2 or 3 throwing knives. The TK never have wood handle, only "flexible" material, and just at the base of the stem for a good grip, not in the middle. The engraving on the blade ,which looks like a man, is a chameleon, a totemic animal and a symbol of a very fast strike. The Kipinga is a good TK which has a good comportment in flight. http://lulef.free.fr/html/zande.html Luc Attached Images

12th October 2007, 09:59 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Hi Rod, Instant service here tonight. No 1. looks very much like a modern copy of a Zande and neighbours throwing knife. No 2. Is what is known as a Shi knife, interesting that you show this as some people may say that a certain style indicates more age but seeing your example i am not sure that holds much water. No 3. Is a seme could well be before the Mau Mau. No 4. Is what Believe is a Ngombe/ Poto? knife from the Congo and look like it may be old.

12th October 2007, 10:55 PM	#5
Rod Charters Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 48	Hi Tim, thanks for the instant service. Shame about the throwing knife as always had the impression it was quite old especially given the amount of rust encrusted on the reverse side. Don't quite understand your comment on the Shi knife. By the way where do these knives come from? Rod

13th October 2007, 11:17 AM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Hi Rod when I say modern in reference to the Zande type throwing throwing knife I do not me recent. In my opinion I would not think it pre 1950. As far as I know the Shi type of sword may have a large footprint. South East Congo certainly I have a suspicion the form travels further possibly to parts of Ruanda, Tanzania and even Northern Zambia, just my opinion. I am still after one like yours. I think it is a regional style rather than a style suggestive of greater age. I have this one.

13th October 2007, 05:53 PM	#7
Rod Charters Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 48	Tim thanks thats very interesting. Coming back to the throwing knife. In its current form does not seem very practical to throw 1. because of its weight and 2. because of the central wooden section. Do you think this knife has been converted from a throwing knife into something more decorative. Thanks Rod.

13th October 2007, 07:41 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Rod you could follow this old thread. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...throwing+knife The TK you have does appear to have been cut rather than forged. The wood casing is quite odd I wonder what Luc or Freddy may have to say. Although a little rough compered to older weapon and prestige versions I would hesitate from saying it was just a decorative thing perhaps for tourists. Perhaps pm Luc?

13th October 2007, 11:05 PM	#9
Rod Charters Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 48	Thanks Tim thats been very helpful. I'll PM Luc, Rod

13th October 2007, 11:44 PM	#11
Rod Charters Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 48	Thanks to both of you and good to know next time I get offered an "African Chiefs Knife".