Anyone regconizes this crown ?

fernando · 24th December 2006, 06:50 PM

This would be a Portuguese Blunderbuss ( Bacamarte ), apparently transformed from a musket, by the time of the Napoleonic wars ( French invasions ).
The seller said the barrel was a military version, which was cut shorter and widened at the muzzle, becoming a civilian defence weapon. I also think the stock butt was shortened for the same purpose, but i am not sure. He pretends that barrel, stock and lock are Portuguese. I admit the stock could be civilian, either Portuguese or Spanish, both similar at the period, if i am not mistaken. My biggest doubt goes for the lock. Seller sugests it was once marked JPR ( João Principe Regente ) but the remaining traces of the crown don't fit with such traditional marking, as i notice in other examples.
Could this be a british lock ? I would apreciate any coments on it, as well as on the whole piece.
Thanks in advance
fernando
Total length: 72,5 cms.
Barrel length: 44 cms
Caliber: 17 m/m

Tim Simmons · 24th December 2006, 08:09 PM

Not that I know much about these things but I do not think it is British. Too me the crown looks more like a Nordic model? certianly continental Europe rather than the UK.

katana · 24th December 2006, 10:06 PM

Hi Fernando,
I too have little knowledge about firearms but I found this...I do not know if its helpful....but the stock is similar and is described as

A very Rare and unusual Georgian Half Sized New Land Pattern Tower Flintlock Musket,British Military Proof Marks,marked 24 bore , .577 cal. Barell 27 inch's , over all length 41.1/2ins. Regulation Lock with TOWER AND CROWN STAMP also maker stamp "JWR" ( J&W.Richards of London?)this would make it circa 1800.

I am not suggesting that its a twin...just your suspicion it is British, the crown mark and the JWR, I appreciate that the initials are believed to be
JPR but, I cannot see (on the photos how clear it is.......if the middle letter is severly 'wiped' the could the believed 'P' be a 'W')

The page below also has photographs.

http://www.northirishmilitaria.com/moreinfo.asp?id=128

Regards David

Robert · 25th December 2006, 04:37 AM

Just a quick question. Would the weapon in the first pictures be considered a "blunderbuss" or a "musketoon"?

Robert

fernando · 25th December 2006, 09:36 PM

Hi Tim,
Thanks for the hint. I will consider that.
Hi David,
Thanks for your good whilling.
However the stock in my piece is "flutted", contrary to the one in the pictures you found. Probably this was a way to lighten up the gun, i don´t know for sure, but it certainly was a fashion used in civilian shot guns of the period, at least over here. However the lock, with a so called swan neck hammer, is rather strong and surely military. For many years the Portuguese fire and edged weapons were influenced by British models, or were even actually British, imported or offered, according to circumstances ( Peninsular war, and so on ). Be it either Portuguese or British, the crown on the lock plate is situated too low to allow for the usual royal monogram below, like GR ( George Rex ) or JPR (Portuguese John Regent Prince ). That is my drama, when i speculate on the lock origin.
Hi Robert,
I had to do some searching. The term Musketoon is not so much seen in Portuguese arms typology. It was used in Brazil in th 19th. century, to define a sort of carbine ( or clavina ), nothing to do with the piece in question. But i see what you mean, when it comes to english lexicon, despite the narrow frontier between blunderbuss and musketoon, so i read in the Net. Anyway and, as you can see, my piece is an atypical one, and was not born in either version, as it was later modified, most probably to become lighter, easier to load, and specialy easier to conceal or carry. Musketoon instead of Blunderbuss, no problem. Actually the straight translation for Musketoon ( Mosquetão ) in continental Portuguese is snap hook.
Kind regards
fernando

24th December 2006, 06:50 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Anyone regconizes this crown ? This would be a Portuguese Blunderbuss ( Bacamarte ), apparently transformed from a musket, by the time of the Napoleonic wars ( French invasions ). The seller said the barrel was a military version, which was cut shorter and widened at the muzzle, becoming a civilian defence weapon. I also think the stock butt was shortened for the same purpose, but i am not sure. He pretends that barrel, stock and lock are Portuguese. I admit the stock could be civilian, either Portuguese or Spanish, both similar at the period, if i am not mistaken. My biggest doubt goes for the lock. Seller sugests it was once marked JPR ( João Principe Regente ) but the remaining traces of the crown don't fit with such traditional marking, as i notice in other examples. Could this be a british lock ? I would apreciate any coments on it, as well as on the whole piece. Thanks in advance fernando Total length: 72,5 cms. Barrel length: 44 cms Caliber: 17 m/m Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 24th December 2006 at 07:27 PM.

24th December 2006, 10:06 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Fernando, I too have little knowledge about firearms but I found this...I do not know if its helpful....but the stock is similar and is described as A very Rare and unusual Georgian Half Sized New Land Pattern Tower Flintlock Musket,British Military Proof Marks,marked 24 bore , .577 cal. Barell 27 inch's , over all length 41.1/2ins. Regulation Lock with TOWER AND CROWN STAMP also maker stamp "JWR" ( J&W.Richards of London?)this would make it circa 1800. I am not suggesting that its a twin...just your suspicion it is British, the crown mark and the JWR, I appreciate that the initials are believed to be JPR but, I cannot see (on the photos how clear it is.......if the middle letter is severly 'wiped' the could the believed 'P' be a 'W') The page below also has photographs. http://www.northirishmilitaria.com/moreinfo.asp?id=128 Regards David Last edited by katana; 24th December 2006 at 10:19 PM.

25th December 2006, 09:36 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Tim, Thanks for the hint. I will consider that. Hi David, Thanks for your good whilling. However the stock in my piece is "flutted", contrary to the one in the pictures you found. Probably this was a way to lighten up the gun, i don´t know for sure, but it certainly was a fashion used in civilian shot guns of the period, at least over here. However the lock, with a so called swan neck hammer, is rather strong and surely military. For many years the Portuguese fire and edged weapons were influenced by British models, or were even actually British, imported or offered, according to circumstances ( Peninsular war, and so on ). Be it either Portuguese or British, the crown on the lock plate is situated too low to allow for the usual royal monogram below, like GR ( George Rex ) or JPR (Portuguese John Regent Prince ). That is my drama, when i speculate on the lock origin. Hi Robert, I had to do some searching. The term Musketoon is not so much seen in Portuguese arms typology. It was used in Brazil in th 19th. century, to define a sort of carbine ( or clavina ), nothing to do with the piece in question. But i see what you mean, when it comes to english lexicon, despite the narrow frontier between blunderbuss and musketoon, so i read in the Net. Anyway and, as you can see, my piece is an atypical one, and was not born in either version, as it was later modified, most probably to become lighter, easier to load, and specialy easier to conceal or carry. Musketoon instead of Blunderbuss, no problem. Actually the straight translation for Musketoon ( Mosquetão ) in continental Portuguese is snap hook. Kind regards fernando Last edited by fernando; 25th December 2006 at 10:05 PM.

24th December 2006, 08:09 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Not that I know much about these things but I do not think it is British. Too me the crown looks more like a Nordic model? certianly continental Europe rather than the UK.

25th December 2006, 04:37 AM	#4
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Just a quick question. Would the weapon in the first pictures be considered a "blunderbuss" or a "musketoon"? Robert