FH Cripps-Day 'Fragmenta Armamentara'

Triarii · 2nd August 2023, 11:42 AM

Has anyone got a copy of FH Cripps-Day 'Fragmenta Armamentara" II ii, Frome, (1938) please.

The reference I have in another source says this book refers to 'Lots 23-25, 32, 38' covering 'semitaries or Turky swords' so presumably these are either auction items or possibly lottery prizes (eg there was a lottery on June 29, 1586, where armour was the prize).

I can't find it online or for sale, or at least not with enough clarity around the title that I'm sure it's the correct volume.

This is about tying together another reference to basket hilted swords supplied for the City trained bands in 1614, Francis Markhams 1622 comments about 'Turkie blades' and other references to issued basket hilted swords.

As a result I'm wondering how common curved bladed C17th basket hilts were (the Turky or semitarie [scimitar] likely being curved blades), though as far as surviving examples go, I've only seen the RA IX. 1015, which I think is Scottish.

I'd like to see a copy of what is actually written by Cripps-Day to get some context.

PS I obtained some photos of the Sandal Castle basket hilt (pre 1646) from the Wakefield museum and the blade is actually bent, not curved as some photographs imply.

Jim McDougall · 3rd August 2023, 12:45 AM

The reference referred to here is of course the late Claude Blair's outstanding essay "The Early Basket Hilt in Britain", from "Scottish Weapons and Fortifications" Ed. David Caldwell, 1981.

The obscure reference you are seeking is mentioned is in the footnotes (#34) where Francis Markham in 1622 describes the blade'of a musketeers sword should be strong and massie (=massive?) of which the TURKIE or the Bilboe are the best.

As bilboe was a colloquial English term referring to Spanish blades exported from the port of Bilbao, and used collectively for fine blades, typically rapier but later broadsword arming blades, the TURKIE must have meant 'curved' as explained by Mr. Blair.

As often noted, references on sword types typically focus on the hilt styles, as blades were commonly of various types, depending on what was available and on the preferences of the maker or client(ele). In the working life of swords, in many cases the blades were replaced as required.

While TURKIE blades have been regarded as 'curved' therefore of 'Eastern' style (scimitar, saber etc.) it should be noted that this collective term may describe various hanger blades, as well as the often stout blades of European dusagge (such as Sinclair saber etc).

As swords were typically mounted by cutlers (or sword slippers) in England and Scotland using imported blades, most were of course German, but it is doubtful any Eastern blades were used unless trophies from campaigns in the East.

The Blair essay deals with the evolution and ancestry of the basket hilt, with mentions of blades only augmenting the descriptions and context of the hilts.
In the Rowlands reference in Blair (p.159) there is mention of 'turkey' swords with basket hilts from 1600,1601. Clearly the basket hilt sword in Britain was in use at the beginning of the 17th c. and certainly was developing in Scotland in the well known forms (then termed 'Irish hilts').

So establishing a terminus post quem for the curved blade on the Scottish basket hilt would seem quite a conundrum. As noted on Sandal Castle sword, (it seems I have seen other references noting this blade is bent, not curved) it is with hilt of flat bars deemed Scottish, but of course only the British definition is prudent. It was a relic of the English Civil Wars (ECW) c. 1646 and found in 1928.

While the F.H. Cripps-Day reference is likely pretty hard to find outside university holdings or possibly the British Museum etc. I doubt that the references made in it will provide definitive context given the broad use of these terms without detailed descriptions. Just the same, we can always hope, right?

As an example of how basket hilts might obtain curved (Turcael=turkish, curved) blades, this one is a British basket hilt c. 1750 as used by the Black Watch into the Revolutionary War. These were abolished when infantry were to no longer use swords (focus on bayonets) in 1784, and they went into armory stores. Apparently later in the century, officers, whether rifle companies or other, opted to use these basket hilts mounted with M1788 light cavalry blades as this one.......thus 'turcael'

urbanspaceman · 3rd August 2023, 10:29 PM

Hi Jim. Just in case you are not familiar with the sword mentioned: RA IX. 1015
here it is.

Jim McDougall · 4th August 2023, 04:01 AM

Thank you Keith, actually I had not been able to locate an image of that, velly interesting!

Triarii · 16th August 2023, 10:38 AM

Thanks both. I have Claude Blair's work and forgot to look back at that.

I'm interested in the actual Cripps-Day words, though it is a secondary source, as I hoped it would provide some more context or even point to the primary source. I realise that it won't be definitive, but would add some more flavour and possibly give more clues to what was meant by some of the terms.

Having read a lot on ECW era arms and equipment, training etc, too much gets omitted that is important, or gets mangled in the re-telling. A friend is doing some good digging on equipment orders in the (UK) National Archives, and that's adding some unusual angles and challenges to perceived wisdom.

2nd August 2023, 11:42 AM	#1
Triarii Member Join Date: Oct 2021 Location: Bristol Posts: 112	FH Cripps-Day 'Fragmenta Armamentara' Has anyone got a copy of FH Cripps-Day 'Fragmenta Armamentara" II ii, Frome, (1938) please. The reference I have in another source says this book refers to 'Lots 23-25, 32, 38' covering 'semitaries or Turky swords' so presumably these are either auction items or possibly lottery prizes (eg there was a lottery on June 29, 1586, where armour was the prize). I can't find it online or for sale, or at least not with enough clarity around the title that I'm sure it's the correct volume. This is about tying together another reference to basket hilted swords supplied for the City trained bands in 1614, Francis Markhams 1622 comments about 'Turkie blades' and other references to issued basket hilted swords. As a result I'm wondering how common curved bladed C17th basket hilts were (the Turky or semitarie [scimitar] likely being curved blades), though as far as surviving examples go, I've only seen the RA IX. 1015, which I think is Scottish. I'd like to see a copy of what is actually written by Cripps-Day to get some context. PS I obtained some photos of the Sandal Castle basket hilt (pre 1646) from the Wakefield museum and the blade is actually bent, not curved as some photographs imply. Last edited by Triarii; 2nd August 2023 at 04:22 PM.

3rd August 2023, 12:45 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,937	The reference referred to here is of course the late Claude Blair's outstanding essay "The Early Basket Hilt in Britain", from "Scottish Weapons and Fortifications" Ed. David Caldwell, 1981. The obscure reference you are seeking is mentioned is in the footnotes (#34) where Francis Markham in 1622 describes the blade'of a musketeers sword should be strong and massie (=massive?) of which the TURKIE or the Bilboe are the best. As bilboe was a colloquial English term referring to Spanish blades exported from the port of Bilbao, and used collectively for fine blades, typically rapier but later broadsword arming blades, the TURKIE must have meant 'curved' as explained by Mr. Blair. As often noted, references on sword types typically focus on the hilt styles, as blades were commonly of various types, depending on what was available and on the preferences of the maker or client(ele). In the working life of swords, in many cases the blades were replaced as required. While TURKIE blades have been regarded as 'curved' therefore of 'Eastern' style (scimitar, saber etc.) it should be noted that this collective term may describe various hanger blades, as well as the often stout blades of European dusagge (such as Sinclair saber etc). As swords were typically mounted by cutlers (or sword slippers) in England and Scotland using imported blades, most were of course German, but it is doubtful any Eastern blades were used unless trophies from campaigns in the East. The Blair essay deals with the evolution and ancestry of the basket hilt, with mentions of blades only augmenting the descriptions and context of the hilts. In the Rowlands reference in Blair (p.159) there is mention of 'turkey' swords with basket hilts from 1600,1601. Clearly the basket hilt sword in Britain was in use at the beginning of the 17th c. and certainly was developing in Scotland in the well known forms (then termed 'Irish hilts'). So establishing a terminus post quem for the curved blade on the Scottish basket hilt would seem quite a conundrum. As noted on Sandal Castle sword, (it seems I have seen other references noting this blade is bent, not curved) it is with hilt of flat bars deemed Scottish, but of course only the British definition is prudent. It was a relic of the English Civil Wars (ECW) c. 1646 and found in 1928. While the F.H. Cripps-Day reference is likely pretty hard to find outside university holdings or possibly the British Museum etc. I doubt that the references made in it will provide definitive context given the broad use of these terms without detailed descriptions. Just the same, we can always hope, right? As an example of how basket hilts might obtain curved (Turcael=turkish, curved) blades, this one is a British basket hilt c. 1750 as used by the Black Watch into the Revolutionary War. These were abolished when infantry were to no longer use swords (focus on bayonets) in 1784, and they went into armory stores. Apparently later in the century, officers, whether rifle companies or other, opted to use these basket hilts mounted with M1788 light cavalry blades as this one.......thus 'turcael' Attached Images

3rd August 2023, 10:29 PM	#3
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 530	Royal Armouries reference Hi Jim. Just in case you are not familiar with the sword mentioned: RA IX. 1015 here it is. Attached Images

4th August 2023, 04:01 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,937	Thank you Keith, actually I had not been able to locate an image of that, velly interesting!

16th August 2023, 10:38 AM	#5
Triarii Member Join Date: Oct 2021 Location: Bristol Posts: 112	Thanks both. I have Claude Blair's work and forgot to look back at that. I'm interested in the actual Cripps-Day words, though it is a secondary source, as I hoped it would provide some more context or even point to the primary source. I realise that it won't be definitive, but would add some more flavour and possibly give more clues to what was meant by some of the terms. Having read a lot on ECW era arms and equipment, training etc, too much gets omitted that is important, or gets mangled in the re-telling. A friend is doing some good digging on equipment orders in the (UK) National Archives, and that's adding some unusual angles and challenges to perceived wisdom.