Ivory handle knife for comment. Arabic translation?

Bill M · 16th September 2006, 02:41 PM

I just got this from an eBay seller, who is selling off part of her grandfather's collection. It was listed as "possibly Bosnian Armanian or Greek. One piece ivory hilt. 12 3/4" overall. Brass covered wooden scabbard."

Would also like a translation of the Arabic.

Not a published piece. This is all I know about it.

Any ideas?

Thanks

Valjhun · 16th September 2006, 06:19 PM

Hi! That is a typical Sarajevo dagger as were manufactured and sold on the Bash charshiya market. The age is around 1850-1890. I would say that it is more towards 1850 as after the austrohungaric "liberation" of bosnia they used more commonly latin alfabet and gregorian calendar.

I cannot help you for the transaltion thou.

mavi1970 · 17th September 2006, 03:26 PM

nice addition. looking at the writing, even though its upside down, its old turkish or arabic and the numbers translated to the gregorian calender is 1898 ( 1314 + 584 roughly). if what i saw is correct.

Bill M · 17th September 2006, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavi1970

nice addition. looking at the writing, even though its upside down, its old turkish or arabic and the numbers translated to the gregorian calender is 1898 ( 1314 + 584 roughly). if what i saw is correct.

Let me turn it over! I have also enlarged and enhanced contrast for hopefully easier reading. Do the letters usually read right when the sharp edge is up?

Does the other side mean anything?

Thank you for your response(s)

Bill

Zifir · 17th September 2006, 06:37 PM

'Amal (work of) Omar Sirri Abou Sinn

Bill M · 20th September 2006, 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zifir

'Amal (work of) Omar Sirri Abou Sinn

Zifir,

Thank you for the translation!

Rick · 20th September 2006, 03:26 AM

Can we call this knife a Bichaq ?

Valjhun · 20th September 2006, 08:36 AM

Yes, surely, it is called Bosnian Bichaq among collectors here.

Bill M · 20th September 2006, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valjhun

Yes, surely, it is called Bosnian Bichaq among collectors here.

Thanks Valjhun and Rick, also!

Battara · 20th September 2006, 05:47 PM

I guess it could be a little bit wide for a "bichaq" but certainly it is Bosnian without question. Nice example Bill. Not too crazy about these, but I do llike yours.

Doug M · 20th September 2006, 08:33 PM

Could you post some close-up shots of the handle to show, if possible, some of the ivory grain? I would like a better inspection of the handle to have a better idea if it is actually ivory. It looks like it could be bone, but that could be a mater of the photography. That is a problem with photographing ivory...

Sincerely,

Doug Mullane

Valjhun · 20th September 2006, 09:42 PM

And here is my pair.

not2sharp · 21st September 2006, 12:19 AM

Bill,

I still think your sheath looks like it is covered in reptile hide.

n2s

Bill M · 21st September 2006, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug M

Could you post some close-up shots of the handle to show, if possible, some of the ivory grain? I would like a better inspection of the handle to have a better idea if it is actually ivory. It looks like it could be bone, but that could be a mater of the photography. That is a problem with photographing ivory...

Sincerely,

Doug Mullane

Sure. Looks like ivory to me.

Bill M · 21st September 2006, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by not2sharp

Bill,

I still think your sheath looks like it is covered in reptile hide.

n2s

Sorry N2S, it looks like it in the pix, but it is brass and some white metal.

not2sharp · 21st September 2006, 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

Sorry N2S, it looks like it in the pix, but it is brass and some white metal.

Darn those pictures are tricky.

Unfortunately, that last set, leaves me with the impression that the handle is bone. I see what looks like pores for a vascular system (all of those tiny brown and red specs).

n2s

Doug M · 22nd September 2006, 06:15 PM

Just got back in...

One reason why my request may have seemed so guarded is because photography of ivory can be, well, particular. And I have been in contact with eBay sellers, for instance, who have been very defensive about their "ivory."

But not2sharp points out what I was wondering about. The cracks were also throwing me off since ivory ages and cracks. But is this due to the metal in the handle? Essentially, when I saw the first set of pictures, I thought, "That is bone." It is not uncommon to mistake ivory for bone. Maybe I can post some very old eBay pictures (a decade old, literally) of objects that are obviously bone but were sold as ivory.

Maybe one or two forumites who own similar pieces could shoot a close-up shot or two of his or her handle(s) to offer some comparison. Ivory that ages varies in color, cracks, etc. So while this comparison will not be as much a matter of A = B, it will offer more perspective. A grain should be visible at least, yet whether the camera will capture it or not is another matter.

Regardless, the piece looks nice, and that is the point, I suppose (from a collector's perspective, I mean). I would be happy with a piece like that.

You could take it to an antique dealer or auction gallery that usually sells ivory, and that person should be able to give you an assessment right away, the benefit being she or he will see the handle up close. This is, of course, only if the handle's material is a concern...

Sincerely,

Doug M

Lew · 22nd September 2006, 07:56 PM

Bill

A real nice dagger. The hilt seems to be bone and not ivory. The way to confirm if it's ivory is to look for the cross hatch matrix in the ivory. If you are really upset about it not being ivory please feel free to send it to me. It will have a good home here in N.J.

Lew

not2sharp · 22nd September 2006, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Bill

A real nice dagger. The hilt seems to be bone and not ivory. The way to confirm if it's ivory is to look for the cross hatch matrix in the ivory. If you are really upset about it not being ivory please feel free to send it to me. It will have a good home here in N.J.

Lew

Lew,
Can you post a picture of that "cross hatch matrix"?

n2s

Bill M · 23rd September 2006, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Bill

A real nice dagger. The hilt seems to be bone and not ivory. The way to confirm if it's ivory is to look for the cross hatch matrix in the ivory. If you are really upset about it not being ivory please feel free to send it to me. It will have a good home here in N.J.

Lew

Lew,

In hand, it seems to be ivory. The original seller is Fred Coluzzi and he thinks it is ivory.

If it is bone, it has a finer grain than I have seen before. Realize the handle is less than 3/4" in cross section so the pictures are quite an enlargement.

But it could be bone. I don't know. It is not a big deal to me one way or the other, I'd just like to know how to better determine what are the differences between bone and ivory and how to tell.

Thanks
Bill

Valjhun · 23rd September 2006, 03:26 PM

I think it is bone. At least all of thoose Bosnian bichak I've seen were bone. Also Balkan yataghans, there's always bone and not ivory.

spiral · 23rd September 2006, 04:41 PM

This site shows photos of the different angle of lines for identyfying both Elephant & mammoth ivory.{& bone features etc.

Spiral

link.

This is the Elephant one.

& mammoth.

Tim Simmons · 23rd September 2006, 05:14 PM

It looks a solid piece, 3/4 inch rather thick for most bone from the animals of the area. The few brown dot are hard to say with certainty blood vessel. It also looks quite fine. It could be from a toothed whale? from the Mediterranean/Black Sea? It does not have the soft look of well handled ivory?

16th September 2006, 02:41 PM	#1
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Ivory handle knife for comment. Arabic translation? I just got this from an eBay seller, who is selling off part of her grandfather's collection. It was listed as "possibly Bosnian Armanian or Greek. One piece ivory hilt. 12 3/4" overall. Brass covered wooden scabbard." Would also like a translation of the Arabic. Not a published piece. This is all I know about it. Any ideas? Thanks Attached Images

20th September 2006, 09:42 PM	#12
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	And here is my pair. Attached Images

16th September 2006, 06:19 PM	#2
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Hi! That is a typical Sarajevo dagger as were manufactured and sold on the Bash charshiya market. The age is around 1850-1890. I would say that it is more towards 1850 as after the austrohungaric "liberation" of bosnia they used more commonly latin alfabet and gregorian calendar. I cannot help you for the transaltion thou.

17th September 2006, 03:26 PM	#3
mavi1970 Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canada Posts: 90	nice addition. looking at the writing, even though its upside down, its old turkish or arabic and the numbers translated to the gregorian calender is 1898 ( 1314 + 584 roughly). if what i saw is correct.

17th September 2006, 06:37 PM	#5
Zifir Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Istanbul Posts: 228	'Amal (work of) Omar Sirri Abou Sinn

20th September 2006, 03:26 AM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Can we call this knife a Bichaq ?

20th September 2006, 08:36 AM	#8
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Yes, surely, it is called Bosnian Bichaq among collectors here.

20th September 2006, 05:47 PM	#10
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	I guess it could be a little bit wide for a "bichaq" but certainly it is Bosnian without question. Nice example Bill. Not too crazy about these, but I do llike yours.

20th September 2006, 08:33 PM	#11
Doug M Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 10	Could you post some close-up shots of the handle to show, if possible, some of the ivory grain? I would like a better inspection of the handle to have a better idea if it is actually ivory. It looks like it could be bone, but that could be a mater of the photography. That is a problem with photographing ivory... Sincerely, Doug Mullane

21st September 2006, 12:19 AM	#13
not2sharp Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 210	Bill, I still think your sheath looks like it is covered in reptile hide. n2s

22nd September 2006, 06:15 PM	#17
Doug M Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 10	Just got back in... One reason why my request may have seemed so guarded is because photography of ivory can be, well, particular. And I have been in contact with eBay sellers, for instance, who have been very defensive about their "ivory." But not2sharp points out what I was wondering about. The cracks were also throwing me off since ivory ages and cracks. But is this due to the metal in the handle? Essentially, when I saw the first set of pictures, I thought, "That is bone." It is not uncommon to mistake ivory for bone. Maybe I can post some very old eBay pictures (a decade old, literally) of objects that are obviously bone but were sold as ivory. Maybe one or two forumites who own similar pieces could shoot a close-up shot or two of his or her handle(s) to offer some comparison. Ivory that ages varies in color, cracks, etc. So while this comparison will not be as much a matter of A = B, it will offer more perspective. A grain should be visible at least, yet whether the camera will capture it or not is another matter. Regardless, the piece looks nice, and that is the point, I suppose (from a collector's perspective, I mean). I would be happy with a piece like that. You could take it to an antique dealer or auction gallery that usually sells ivory, and that person should be able to give you an assessment right away, the benefit being she or he will see the handle up close. This is, of course, only if the handle's material is a concern... Sincerely, Doug M

22nd September 2006, 07:56 PM	#18
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Bill A real nice dagger. The hilt seems to be bone and not ivory. The way to confirm if it's ivory is to look for the cross hatch matrix in the ivory. If you are really upset about it not being ivory please feel free to send it to me. It will have a good home here in N.J. Lew

23rd September 2006, 03:26 PM	#21
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	I think it is bone. At least all of thoose Bosnian bichak I've seen were bone. Also Balkan yataghans, there's always bone and not ivory.

23rd September 2006, 04:41 PM	#22
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	This site shows photos of the different angle of lines for identyfying both Elephant & mammoth ivory.{& bone features etc. Spiral link. This is the Elephant one. & mammoth.

23rd September 2006, 05:14 PM	#23
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	It looks a solid piece, 3/4 inch rather thick for most bone from the animals of the area. The few brown dot are hard to say with certainty blood vessel. It also looks quite fine. It could be from a toothed whale? from the Mediterranean/Black Sea? It does not have the soft look of well handled ivory?