little kris

manteris1 · 22nd August 2013, 12:34 AM

hi kris people, i'd had this little kris awhile, i know nothing about it. i had a note that it was a 'dukun' kris i know that that means 'shaman' i think. what do you think........................thanks............... ....jimmy

David · 22nd August 2013, 06:10 AM

Interesting keris that looks like it might have some talismanic pamor, but i don't see anything that would specifically ascribe it to a dukun. With that long gandik i'd say this is something from the kebo family of dhapurs and it appears to be gonjo iras. Kebo keris are often thought to be good for people with agricultural pursuits.

A. G. Maisey · 22nd August 2013, 08:40 AM

Any keris can be a dukun keris, if it once belonged to a dukun.

But there are many types of dukun, they are not always the equivalent of a shaman, but can actually fulfil the role of a midwife and assist with a birth, or be practitioners of some form of natural medicine, or can foretell the future, or do remote viewing, or stop rain from falling --- or a heap of other things.

Mostly dukuns are good guys, a few are not so good, but to find a genuine black magic dukun these days is close to impossible. The ones who claim they are, are pretty much likely to be conmen.

David · 22nd August 2013, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Any keris can be a dukun keris, if it once belonged to a dukun.

Absolutely. When i see keris for sale that are ascribed to dukun it becomes an immediate red flag for me. Sellers use this as a selling point for Western collectors hoping to purchase a piece of "magic". Mostly these are pretty rough looking specimens forged with little skill and often badly maintained as well.

manteris1 · 22nd August 2013, 03:44 PM

i'm not sure what this means, 'kebo family of dhapurs and it appears to be gonjo iras.' .........jimmy

Sajen · 22nd August 2013, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by manteris1

i'm not sure what this means, 'kebo family of dhapurs and it appears to be gonjo iras.' .........jimmy

With "kebo family" David mean that the blade have a long gandik and with "gonjo iras" is meant that the cross piece over the blade isn't separate but only marked. See attached sample.

Regards,

Detlef

David · 22nd August 2013, 05:13 PM

Sorry Jimmy. We get used to throwing around certain keris terminology around here without thinking. "Dhapur" refers to the profile of the blade. Picture it as a silhouette. It's one way to ID or categorize a blade. To be a little more specific, some might refer to your blade as Kebo Lajer as compared to Kebo Teki or Kebo Giri, etc which would have long ganders, but slightly different features. This is why i stated this was in the Kebo "Family". Hopefully Detlef's illustration has shown you the area of the blade that is referred to as the "gandik". All Kebo blades have longer than usual gandik areas.
The "gonjo" (often written as ganja as well) is the asymmetrical piece at the base of the blade. Most often this is a separate piece from the blade. On yours it is part of the blade with only an inscribed line to mark an implied separation. This is less common and is referred to as "Gonjo Iras".
Of course, all of these are Javanese terms and are not truly correct when we apply them to keris from different areas, which we tend to do all the time anyway.

Generally i try to use English terms where they are clear, so i will say blade instead of "wilah", hilt instead of "ukiran" of "hulu" and sheath instead of "wrongko" or "sarong", but with a part like the gonjo i have no English word that really describes it well.

David · 22nd August 2013, 05:16 PM

Jimmy, you call this a "little" keris. How long is the blade?

manteris1 · 22nd August 2013, 05:42 PM

the blade is 83/4", thanks all............jimmy

David · 22nd August 2013, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by manteris1

the blade is 83/4", thanks all............jimmy

In that case Jimmy this might also be a "patrem", a keris made for a woman. These keris are small like this. So are talismanic keris like keris sajen (which this certainly isn't) and yes, i suppose some so-called dukun keris. So i couldn't completely discount that this keris was once a dukun keris, but i'd be more likely to call it a patrem. Patrems (like most of the so-called dukun keris i see) are also generally lower-end pieces in terms of blade quality, generally not very artistic blades. I don't know exactly why that is except that generally being a symbol of maleness perhaps it is felt that the same kind of work and attention is not necessary for a keris made for a woman. Why the same low artistic level is also true of most of the so-called dukun blades i see on the market i cannot say with any certainly though since i suspect that most of those are not in fact blades that were truly owned by any dukun that might be a clue of some sort.

A. G. Maisey · 22nd August 2013, 11:09 PM

Further on the subject of "dukun keris", and in fact supposedly "magic" keris of any type.

In the trade in Solo it is well known that dukuns and other con men will search the market stalls for the cheapest junk keris they can find, in order to provide the material object needed for a con job. That con might be a keris that appears magically out of the ground, a keris that flies, a keris that rattles when thieves approach, or any other sort of "magic" that the con man can dream up.

Yes, keris can be "magic", but that magic is nothing at all like the idea that virtually everybody has of magic.

22nd August 2013, 12:34 AM	#1
manteris1 Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 114	little kris hi kris people, i'd had this little kris awhile, i know nothing about it. i had a note that it was a 'dukun' kris i know that that means 'shaman' i think. what do you think........................thanks............... ....jimmy Attached Images

22nd August 2013, 06:10 AM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,119	Interesting keris that looks like it might have some talismanic pamor, but i don't see anything that would specifically ascribe it to a dukun. With that long gandik i'd say this is something from the kebo family of dhapurs and it appears to be gonjo iras. Kebo keris are often thought to be good for people with agricultural pursuits.

22nd August 2013, 08:40 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,888	Any keris can be a dukun keris, if it once belonged to a dukun. But there are many types of dukun, they are not always the equivalent of a shaman, but can actually fulfil the role of a midwife and assist with a birth, or be practitioners of some form of natural medicine, or can foretell the future, or do remote viewing, or stop rain from falling --- or a heap of other things. Mostly dukuns are good guys, a few are not so good, but to find a genuine black magic dukun these days is close to impossible. The ones who claim they are, are pretty much likely to be conmen.

22nd August 2013, 03:44 PM	#5
manteris1 Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 114	i'm not sure what this means, 'kebo family of dhapurs and it appears to be gonjo iras.' .........jimmy

22nd August 2013, 05:13 PM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,119	Sorry Jimmy. We get used to throwing around certain keris terminology around here without thinking. "Dhapur" refers to the profile of the blade. Picture it as a silhouette. It's one way to ID or categorize a blade. To be a little more specific, some might refer to your blade as Kebo Lajer as compared to Kebo Teki or Kebo Giri, etc which would have long ganders, but slightly different features. This is why i stated this was in the Kebo "Family". Hopefully Detlef's illustration has shown you the area of the blade that is referred to as the "gandik". All Kebo blades have longer than usual gandik areas. The "gonjo" (often written as ganja as well) is the asymmetrical piece at the base of the blade. Most often this is a separate piece from the blade. On yours it is part of the blade with only an inscribed line to mark an implied separation. This is less common and is referred to as "Gonjo Iras". Of course, all of these are Javanese terms and are not truly correct when we apply them to keris from different areas, which we tend to do all the time anyway. Generally i try to use English terms where they are clear, so i will say blade instead of "wilah", hilt instead of "ukiran" of "hulu" and sheath instead of "wrongko" or "sarong", but with a part like the gonjo i have no English word that really describes it well.

22nd August 2013, 05:16 PM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,119	Jimmy, you call this a "little" keris. How long is the blade?

22nd August 2013, 05:42 PM	#9
manteris1 Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 114	the blade is 83/4", thanks all............jimmy

22nd August 2013, 11:09 PM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,888	Further on the subject of "dukun keris", and in fact supposedly "magic" keris of any type. In the trade in Solo it is well known that dukuns and other con men will search the market stalls for the cheapest junk keris they can find, in order to provide the material object needed for a con job. That con might be a keris that appears magically out of the ground, a keris that flies, a keris that rattles when thieves approach, or any other sort of "magic" that the con man can dream up. Yes, keris can be "magic", but that magic is nothing at all like the idea that virtually everybody has of magic.