Russian Wootz

[ariel]

Saw a knife on e-bay ( active auction) that gave a link to the master:

http://wootz-online.com/

What do you think?

[RhysMichael]

Maybe we ought to e-mail Dr Ann, I would love to see her input on this thread

[Andrew]

I recall reading about Mr. Kirpichev's work. I can't recall where, perhaps on an old SFI thread.

Interesting stuff. Really glad to see this art/technology thriving! The more contemporary smiths making the stuff, the better.

In addition to Ann, I'd be interested to hear what Jeff and Greg think.

[Jeff Pringle]

I think he is second generation of the Russian bulat revivalists, following Basov and Lounyov; noteable for having gotten bulat to look more like classic Persian wootz than the usual granular or dendritic patterns that the Russian stuff has tended to exhibit since Anosov. Or so I recall from occasional web searches, I could have the names and/or order skewed.
One of the Russians who puts a knife or two on ebay throws some grandstanding photos (cutting through iron bar, 2X4, still shaving) on the auction page, which I find unneccessary - normal steels can do the same parlor tricks when heat treated well.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Jeff Pringle

I think he is second generation of the Russian bulat revivalists, following Basov and Lounyov; noteable for having gotten bulat to look more like classic Persian wootz than the usual granular or dendritic patterns that the Russian stuff has tended to exhibit since Anosov. Or so I recall from occasional web searches, I could have the names and/or order skewed.
One of the Russians who puts a knife or two on ebay throws some grandstanding photos (cutting through iron bar, 2X4, still shaving) on the auction page, which I find unneccessary - normal steels can do the same parlor tricks when heat treated well.

That's interesting: we seem to go back to the old question about the supposed advantages of wootz.
If well-treated steel can do the same "parlor tricks" , then where is the superiority of wootz, especially taking into account its brittleness? The horror stories of Forumites about a priceless wootz sword falling on the floor and shattering made me wanting to put pillows around the "weapon room".
Seriously, with the exception of the esthetic factor, what, in your opinion, is the big deal?

[Lew]

Originally Posted by ariel

That's interesting: we seem to go back to the old question about the supposed advantages of wootz.
If well-treated steel can do the same "parlor tricks" , then where is the superiority of wootz, especially taking into account its brittleness? The horror stories of Forumites about a priceless wootz sword falling on the floor and shattering made me wanting to put pillows around the "weapon room".
Seriously, with the exception of the esthetic factor, what, in your opinion, is the big deal?

Ariel

Modern wootz is a good steel but straight 0-1 OR 52100 tool steel is better for everyday chores. Wootz looks pretty but once you start using it it will discolor rust or loose its pattern after time. Most modern knifemakers just give you a bunch of hype when it comes to these alleged super steels.

Lew

[Jeff Pringle]

Seriously, with the exception of the esthetic factor, what, in your opinion, is the big deal?

Never underestimate the esthetic factor
But really, a well-made wootz blade should be able to take a sharper edge and require less resharpening than plain or patternwelded steel, while retaining the same degree of flexibility, and that is probably what got people's attention back when swords were an important survival tool. Those are hard features to demonstrate in an ebay photo. Due to all that extra carbide, wootz can do some things like scratch glass, which regular steel is less capable of - that is a good demonstration that the edge is harder than steel, but Joe Average might not connect that with sharper and longer lasting.
At the time, it was a better way to make steel, but it became out dated technology and ceased to be made.
I'm sure there were a lot of poorly-made wootz blades, too, and brittleness is the first fault you'd see show up if the manufacture went awry.
I think the big deal stems from latter-day rarity and mystery, since when the European scientists were trying to improve steel making they tried to figure out wootz and couldn't - except for Anosov, who said he did figure it out but somehow did not become rich selling swords to the army...his timing was bad, they had already switched to guns I guess

[ariel]

Anosov was a state employee, a director of Zlatoust Factories. He was not supposed to become rich; famous, yes. he was rewarded with major postings.
Not long ago Rick showed here a Zlatoust shashka, dated Anosov's tenure there: real wootz!
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=anosov
There must have been several reasons why wootz did not become a choice material for the Russian army, beside firepower.
It was too damn expensive to make and too finicky in production; the cold weather is not good for it ( this is Russia we are talking about!) and, finally, European swordplay emphasized blade-to-blade contact. Might have been too much for wootz to handle if it was as brittle as the unfortunate experience of some Forumites suggests.