![]() |
![]() |
#1 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,167
|
![]()
Found this odd pole arm, broad single edge blade.
Anyone have any Idea where it may have come from? Doesn't look European to me. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#2 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: California
Posts: 1,036
|
![]()
Is there more of a socket / ferrule / sleeve below the blade than is in the photo you provided? What is the diameter of the shaft? There appear to be two non--ferrous sleeves or bands added on, what materials are they made of?
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#3 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,167
|
![]()
The fittings on it are made of pewter, rattan, dyed rattan and cord, Here's a better picture that shows it is NOT a pole arm after all. The blade appears to be an asian laminate with a differential heat treatment and even has a hamon. Size in total is 17-1/2 ins, blade is 10 ins long and 2-1/2 ins width, thickness of the spine is just over 1/8th inch. The pewter sleeve from the haft looks like it had been chewed by a puppy and has come loose and needs some TLC (see bottom photo), probably why the original photo had part not shown. Looks vaguely asian, but from where? the trapezoidal twisted rattan wrap looks kinda like a moro kris baca-baca in that it appears to hold the blade to the handle behind the initial bolster bit:
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#4 |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Russia, Moscow
Posts: 368
|
![]()
The blade looks like the blade of a Chinese "river pirates" knife.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#5 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,167
|
![]()
Thought of that, have a hudeidao or two, this one is WAY too thin for that.
Last edited by kronckew; 25th October 2019 at 02:18 PM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#6 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: California
Posts: 1,036
|
![]()
Agreed, too thin (and small) to be from a hudiedao or any polearm, The non ferrous additions don’t look very Chinese to me, the workmanship reminds me of some SE Asian areas. The lamellar structure with differential heat treat is a pan-Far East phenomenon, seen on blades from Siam up to Korea and Japan to Inner Asia. Even on domestic tools. It is characteristic of Moro blades from Mindanao, and so forth. If you polished your hudiedao blades you’ll see the same thing.
That being said, there could be a possibility that your piece, wherever it was originally made, may have started out as a domestic knife rather than intended as a weapon, per se. It’s been around the block quite a bit and I find the additions and modifications interesting. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#7 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,167
|
![]()
was coming to the conclusion it might be north Vietnamese/Montagnard or other mountain tribes of the SEA area. Hard to pin down. May indeed be a repurposed item.
p.s.- my 'hudei dao are singletons with full checkered oval section wood grips and bronze guards, NOT half round 'butterfly' versions, they have already been tidied up and cleaned, and the laminations/hamons are visible on in-hand inspection; photos are so limiting.... a before view on the chubbier Qing dynasty one, was covered in rust and muck. It cleaned up nicely, still a razor too. both blades somewhere around a half inch thick or so at the guard, both guards are also monsterously thick. Last edited by kronckew; 25th October 2019 at 03:21 PM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#8 | |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Russia
Posts: 1,042
|
![]() Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#9 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,167
|
![]()
I think he was thinking of one of these more recent wing chun dancing knives.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9-cJdG_fr4 Last edited by kronckew; 25th October 2019 at 04:04 PM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#10 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
|
![]()
I do not think it is a reworked utility knife. To me it looks like some kind of South Asian shafted weapon, in the family of Indian Bhuj, SEA Mak, Japanese Naginata or even European Couteaux de Breche or Siberian Palma and Batiyya. Longer handle allowed for the use of both hands to add power, and the length of blade might have been intentionally kept short to increase rigidity. In any case, one needed only so much sharp edge for full functionality: the dreaded Spanish Colonial sabers with finger-stalled handles (we used to think they were N. African) had no more than distant third to a half of the blade sharpened. The use of rattan might hint ( weakly but really) of Indonesian of Philippine origin
Last edited by ariel; 25th October 2019 at 04:56 PM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#11 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Russia, Moscow
Posts: 368
|
![]() Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#12 | |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Russia
Posts: 1,042
|
![]() Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#13 | |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: California
Posts: 1,036
|
![]() Quote:
A polearm with blade of similar shape to this object, and to the Chinese fighting knives highlighted in a prior post, was used in China's southern provinces. However, I can state from handling, and restoring, a few of these that those blades are far more substantial (over twice the thickness at the base) and are integral with a tapering solid shank of octagonal section, then transitioning to a fairly wide flat tang with one or two holes for rivets. This is at variance with what we see here on this piece, so despite the superficial similarity of blade outline, we are comparing apples and oranges. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#14 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Russia, Moscow
Posts: 368
|
![]() Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#15 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Paris (France)
Posts: 408
|
![]()
The proportions of the handle in relation to the blade remind me of the knives From Taiwan.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#16 | |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,167
|
![]() Quote:
reminds me of a Taiwanese Pingpu knife. The Pingpu tribe no longer exists, having been absorbed into the population. Example not mine, found online) Last edited by kronckew; 27th October 2019 at 05:08 PM. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#17 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,167
|
![]()
Not the above! Problem solved: It's a Burmese Naga tribal 'basket dha' ('knife'). Found an almost identical one that still had the rest of it's metal sheathing on, and it's hair tail. It fits a woven basket scabbard and sash for carry. This one has some blade decorations.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#18 |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
|
![]()
found on the web, looks a bit similar...
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#19 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
|
![]() Quote:
Where did you find this picture? Are they really Chinese knives? thanks Kubur |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#20 | |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,715
|
![]() Quote:
Regards, Detlef |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#21 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,167
|
![]()
No, not chinese, see my post 17 above. They are Naga made by local tribal blacksmiths, no relation to 'butterfly' or river pirate swords at all.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#22 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
|
![]() Quote:
And yes i posted a naga knife ![]() |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#23 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
|
![]() Quote:
I found it Chinese Highbinder weapons collected by H. H. North, U. S. Commission of Immigration, forwarded to Bureau of Immigration, Washington D. C., about 1900. Note the coexistence of hudiedao (butterfly swords), guns and knives all in the same raid. This collection of weapons is identical to what might have been found in either China or America from the 1860s onward. Courtesy the digital collection of the Bancroft Library, UC Berkley. So if i'm not mistaken this pirate story is a myth... Chinese mafia most probably... a good serie to watch: warrior... |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#24 | |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,167
|
![]() Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
|
|