Unusual Sword

[drac2k]

I recently acquired this sword at a Gun Show. The seller stated that it had been with his family for years and that someone brought it back from Europe. The guard is silver plated ,inlayed , or onlayed (it was black when I acquired it). The blade is 37" long, with indistinguishable traces of writing on it and I believe that it is older than the accompanying hardware.To my untrained eyes it looks to be Colonial Spanish or French.
All help would be appreciated.

[drac2k]

pictures

[werecow]

Here is a similar hilt with the following description:

Lot 15: Deluxe 18th-19th C. Sword for Spanish or Mexican General or Senior Officer, Heavy Silver & Gold Overlaid Iron Hilt, Very Fine 1880 Toledo Blade with Exquisite Gold Inlaid Deeply Engraved Scrolled Panels. Rare Example of Seldom Encountered Quality.

Carrollton, TX, US
October 15, 2022

Description

Deluxe 18th-19th C. Sword for Spanish or Mexican General or Senior Officer, Heavy Silver & Gold Overlaid Iron Hilt, Very Fine 1880 Toledo Blade with Exquisite Gold Inlaid Deeply Engraved Scrolled Panels. Rare Example of Seldom Encountered Quality. Total length (inside scabbard if present) : 41 3/4", Blade length : 34 3/8".

[drac2k]

WOW,THANKS,BULLSEYE!!!

[midelburgo]

Your blade seems to be from an early 1728 model Spanish cavalry sword, a Solingen export. Similar ones usually under the name Enrique Coel, circa 1750. Hilt 1860-1890, some of these likely commissioned by Mexican revolutionary officers at the Spanish city of Eibar because of damascening (Zuloaga).

[drac2k]

Thank you for the information! Can I call this an Espada Ancha?

[midelburgo]

Originally Posted by drac2k

Thank you for the information! Can I call this an Espada Ancha?

The proper name is "Espada de Chinaco", being the chinacos the Mexican revolutionary commanders against Maximiliano, and also later.

There was a thread discussing them (in Spanish) here:

https://www.mexicoarmado.com/cuchill...la-hoja-2.html

But it seems gone.

Chinacos are also considered predecessor of charros so you can find them as charro sword as well (espada charra or espada de charros).

https://www.flickr.com/photos/nohuanda/16669456566

https://www.shutterstock.com/es/edit...ddle-7647211uz

Espadas anchas belong to a diiferent geographical space and period, but certainly your old military blade could have been in one. These blades can be found in Moroccan nimchas too, but your sword is not a nimcha.

Outside Mexico it will be rare anybody knows what are you talking about with chinaco or charro sword. In USA they will with espada ancha.

Last picture from a book titled Charreria.

https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=...50684475946264

You can give a look to this thread.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24378

[Jim McDougall]

The term espada ancha as I have understood was applied to the 'bilbo' style regulation sword of c. 1728, the term meaning loosely 'large sword' but was mistakenly transposed to the short swords (machete/cutlass/hanger) used in the northern colonial regions of New Spain.

[midelburgo]

In period Spanish fencing manuals from XVIIth century and early XVIIIth, they only distinguish between espada, estoque, and verduguillo. No rapier (or ropera). I do not remember to have read in them espada ancha. A narrow sword is a estoque, and an even narrower a verduguillo. XVIIIth century Ordenanzas only write of espadas. Estoques and verduguillos are not considered military weapons.

[Jim McDougall]

http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/...%20Machete.pdf

When I wrote this article on the espada ancha, part of the theme concerned not only the use of this term for these basically utilitarian short swords, when they were known locally only as 'MACHETE'...but the history of their evolution and use.

The modern application of the term ESPADA ANCHA for them seems to have come about c. 1965 when historian Odie Faulk was translating from the regulations for colonial soldiers of I believe 1772. In these regulations it was ordered that the mounted soldiers were to continue carrying the 'espada ancha', in this case referring to the 1728 dragoon sword (known in English as the bilbo).
Mr. Faulk assumed, as he knew of the preference of the colonial mounted troops for the short swords, which they typically wore on the trails, so he thought the espada ancha in the regulations meant these rather than the 'bilbo' (which was meant in the wording) .

Faulk was a close colleague of Sidney Brinckerhoff, who in 1972 with Pierce Chamberlain wrote "Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700-1821". In this, virtually the only reference book on Spanish colonial weapons, Brinckerhoff carried forward this application of the term espada ancha for these 'machetes' . As Woodward (1946) notes, even into the 20th century these short swords have been known as machete.

Historian/artist David Rickman confirmed this situation to me in conversations while working on this article (for which he did the art work), and he had been told this by Mr. Brinckerhoff.

It does make sense that Spanish fencing manuals would not be overly specific in descriptive names for sword types, and the term espada would of course be collectively used. As noted the term 'bilbo' was entirely of English origin which arose in the late 16th century for fine Spanish swords which came out of the northern port of Bilbao.
The colloquial term for these, 'boca de caballo' ,also was simply a colorful term used informally .

The term espada ancha used in the regulations previously noted was intended to specify continuing the use by colonial mounted troops of the LARGE SWORD (=espada ancha) of regulation use as opposed to the smaller swords (machete) which were privately made locally and clearly non regulation.

[werecow]

Originally Posted by midelburgo

The proper name is "Espada de Chinaco", being the chinacos the Mexican revolutionary commanders against Maximiliano, and also later.

There was a thread discussing them (in Spanish) here:

https://www.mexicoarmado.com/cuchill...la-hoja-2.html

But it seems gone.

The link is dead but I'm guessing this is the thread? See post #28.

EDIT: Just in case that one also goes dead, the post says:

Estimados conocedores y coleccionistas, tengo desde hace más de 10 años esta espada de mando de la época porfiriana, me interezaría saber si alguien puede darme más datos sobre la pieza. He seguido de cerca las respuestas que dan al espadin de gala de la misma época y considero que tal vez alguno pueda darme más elementos, para poder tazar la pieza. Si no pues al menos que conozcan esta emblemática espada. Saludos !!!

(Pictures attached)
And the response:

Es una pieza magnífica. Esta vez sí me parece de origen toledano, al menos la hoja; la guarnición sí parece ser hecha en México.
En mi opinión, la vaina es de una época posterior, pues pertenece a una montura charra. No descartaría que haya engalanado la montura de un charro una vez que esta pieza pasó a manos de civiles.

Te recomiendo el siguiente foro español de espadas y esgrima, allí podrán darte una buena opinión:

Asociación Española de Esgrima Antigua • Página principal

[...]

En un examen más detallado, se aprecia que la empuñadura tiene la inscripción de EIBAR. Ojalá se pudieran proporcionar fotografías más detalladas.

Algunos datos relevantes son los siguientes:
La Real Fabrica comenzó a ser administrada por Hacienda Española en 1783, pasando algunos años luego bajo el control del Cuerpo de Artillería, de allí la inscripción ARTILLERIA.
De igual forma, a principios del siglo XIX y ya entrado ese siglo, fueron diversos los fabricantes que produjeron hojas con la inscripción FABRICA DE TOLEDO.
En el siglo XIX, la Fábrica comenzó a utilizar guarniciones encargadas a terceros, siendo las más usuales de EIBAR

El águila sigue pareciendo una aplicación posterior.

Desde luego, te sigo recomendando más la opinión de personas que se especialicen en la Fábrica de Toledo en concreto, y no tanto mi opinión, la cuál se basa principalmente en lo dicho por terceras personas.

También te recomiendo el siguiente libro que tuve oportunidad de pedir en préstamo en la biblioteca de la Universidad de Málaga, durante mi residencia en aquella ciudad española:

PERIS, Diego. LUCAS, Antonio de; ALCALDE, Ángel (colaboradores) La Fábrica de Armas de Toledo. Gabinete del Rector de la Universidad Castilla-La Mancha. Toledo, 1999. Dos tomos

No sé qué tan difícil sea conseguir el libro a través de internet, pero vale mucho la pena. Son dos tomos delgados; el primero habla sobre la historia de la Fábrica, mientras que el segundo trata sobre el rescate del inmueble que llevó a cabo la Universidad de Toledo. No encontrarás ilustraciones de las armas, pero sí muchos datos de fabricación y fechas.

[drac2k]

Thanks to all for the tremendous amount of information! I now need some time to assimilate and further research the excellent material that you all have provided me with!