Eastern Java / Madura kris - Empu Tandju Bari?

erikscollectables · 10th July 2009, 03:04 PM

I am looking for more info on this keris. It has very distinct greneng.
Based on this greneng I have heard two stories - unfortunately very different ones....

Story one was - this is very typical for early Sumenep kerisses

Story two was - this is very typical - signature like for an Empu called Tandju Bari - supposedly early 19th century eastern Java.

This keris is one of my personal favorites in my small collection - would like to hear more opinions!

And just for fun a picture of some other kerisses from the same region!
All favorites of sorts
1 favorite sheath - very nice floral decoration on the silver coloured metal
2 one of my favorite blades as discussed above
3 one of my favorite blades (raja abela raja pamor) and handles - extremely finely carved floral donoriko
4 favorite madura total package of sheath/handle/blade/mendak

David · 10th July 2009, 03:19 PM

Looks like a lovely keris Erik. Unfortunately i cannot solve your mystery. I would recommend however that you post more photos of this keris that include an overall view as well as details.

Sajen · 10th July 2009, 03:21 PM

Hi Eric,

sorry with your specific question I can't help you. But interesting collection of East Javanese/Madura keris you have there.

I don't know if you have followed this threat:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10412
When I look to your sandang walikat sheat from white metal, it looks like silver. You have tested it?

sajen

erikscollectables · 10th July 2009, 03:27 PM

Yes I followed it and I think it is closer to the metal Alan mentioned as mamas - I did not test it as you did but just from the smell on my hands I suspect nickel silver...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi Eric,

sorry with your specific question I can't help you. But interesting collection of East Javanese/Madura keris you have there.

I don't know if you have followed this threat:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10412
When I look to your sandang walikat sheat from white metal, it looks like silver. You have tested it?

sajen

erikscollectables · 10th July 2009, 03:34 PM

and the full blade

erikscollectables · 15th July 2009, 05:45 PM

No ideas about the background of this blade?

A. G. Maisey · 16th July 2009, 02:15 AM

In my opinion this is an old Madura blade.

I have taken the liberty of putting this blade into an orientation that permits me to form an opinion.

Note the way the gandik tends to lean towards the centre of the blade; this is in most cases a characteristic of old Madura blades. Combined with the forward lean of the blade,and the type of pamor that has been used, as well as the form of the greneng, I would be comfortable with a classification of old Madura.

A. G. Maisey · 16th July 2009, 02:17 AM

For some reason the photo did not upload.

Here's another try.

A. G. Maisey · 16th July 2009, 02:21 AM

Nope, it will not upload. Might be something to do with the file type which I think is a GIF.

Anyway, to correctly view a blade the blade base should be parrallel with the ground, the gandik should be to the viewer's left, and we need to be able to see the lines that demarcate the ricikan.

The way this blade has been presented makes it upside down and back to front. Very, very difficult to form any opinion about a blade when viewed in this orientation.

A. G. Maisey · 16th July 2009, 02:28 AM

Maybe this time.

ferrylaki · 16th July 2009, 04:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erikscollectables

and the full blade

Hi Eric, I really like your keris. I have to say this keris has a very fascinating shape. the greneng and jenggot are still in a good shape. wonderful keris it is. I bet it has a thick blade couse I can see the odo-odo on it.
the odo-odo runs from the sor-soran to the pucukan ( the tip of the keris).
the pamor on its edge seem floating run along with the luks and bordering the sogokan.
a few days ago I saw a madura keris with 7 luks which also has thick blade, thick pamor and has odo-odo on it. We can see the tippical style of the gandik, the kembang kacang and hoe the first luk run from the gandik toward the middle of the keris.I manage to take the photograph before it has the warangan. here it is. the blade has 37,5 cm lenght

David · 16th July 2009, 04:28 AM

Erik, i really like this one. Just beautiful!

David · 16th July 2009, 04:52 AM

Forgive me Alan, but you seem to have reversed the orientation of the blade during your photoshopping so i took another crack at it.

A. G. Maisey · 16th July 2009, 05:15 AM

Yes David, I reversed it --- intentionally.

If I had not reversed it it would be back to front, and impossible to properly view.

You see, when you learn all this tangguh and appraisal stuff, you develop something like a set of templates in your mind, so that in order to look at a keris and form any sort of supportable opinion you measure the image against the template that is in your mind.

What I did with the original image was to manipulate it into an orientation where a proper assessment could be made.

In fact, I often do this with published images of keris before I give an opinion, but I have not previously published or explained this.

David · 16th July 2009, 05:33 AM

You know Alan, i suspected that this was your reasoning and certainly completely valid in that context. But i am afraid that it upset my own personal "photojournalist's ethic of reality" so i just had to present the "correct" orientation.

A. G. Maisey · 16th July 2009, 07:07 AM

Yep. I can understand that David.

Ethically, my manipulation sucks, but for the purposes of keris evaluation, its the only one possible.

erikscollectables · 17th July 2009, 12:14 AM

Alan many thanks for the information on the keris.
I also learned again from the discussion around how to keep the keris to study it. I did not know something as basic as that yet.

Regards, Erik

10th July 2009, 03:04 PM	#1
erikscollectables Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 318	Eastern Java / Madura kris - Empu Tandju Bari? I am looking for more info on this keris. It has very distinct greneng. Based on this greneng I have heard two stories - unfortunately very different ones.... Story one was - this is very typical for early Sumenep kerisses Story two was - this is very typical - signature like for an Empu called Tandju Bari - supposedly early 19th century eastern Java. This keris is one of my personal favorites in my small collection - would like to hear more opinions! And just for fun a picture of some other kerisses from the same region! All favorites of sorts 1 favorite sheath - very nice floral decoration on the silver coloured metal 2 one of my favorite blades as discussed above 3 one of my favorite blades (raja abela raja pamor) and handles - extremely finely carved floral donoriko 4 favorite madura total package of sheath/handle/blade/mendak Attached Images Last edited by erikscollectables; 10th July 2009 at 03:21 PM.

10th July 2009, 03:34 PM	#5
erikscollectables Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 318	and the full blade Attached Images

16th July 2009, 02:28 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Maybe this time. Attached Images

16th July 2009, 04:52 AM	#13
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,125	Forgive me Alan, but you seem to have reversed the orientation of the blade during your photoshopping so i took another crack at it. Attached Images

10th July 2009, 03:19 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,125	Looks like a lovely keris Erik. Unfortunately i cannot solve your mystery. I would recommend however that you post more photos of this keris that include an overall view as well as details.

10th July 2009, 03:21 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Hi Eric, sorry with your specific question I can't help you. But interesting collection of East Javanese/Madura keris you have there. I don't know if you have followed this threat: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10412 When I look to your sandang walikat sheat from white metal, it looks like silver. You have tested it? sajen

15th July 2009, 05:45 PM	#6
erikscollectables Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 318	No ideas about the background of this blade?

16th July 2009, 02:15 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	In my opinion this is an old Madura blade. I have taken the liberty of putting this blade into an orientation that permits me to form an opinion. Note the way the gandik tends to lean towards the centre of the blade; this is in most cases a characteristic of old Madura blades. Combined with the forward lean of the blade,and the type of pamor that has been used, as well as the form of the greneng, I would be comfortable with a classification of old Madura.

16th July 2009, 02:17 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	For some reason the photo did not upload. Here's another try.

16th July 2009, 02:21 AM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Nope, it will not upload. Might be something to do with the file type which I think is a GIF. Anyway, to correctly view a blade the blade base should be parrallel with the ground, the gandik should be to the viewer's left, and we need to be able to see the lines that demarcate the ricikan. The way this blade has been presented makes it upside down and back to front. Very, very difficult to form any opinion about a blade when viewed in this orientation.

16th July 2009, 04:28 AM	#12
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,125	Erik, i really like this one. Just beautiful!

16th July 2009, 05:15 AM	#14
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Yes David, I reversed it --- intentionally. If I had not reversed it it would be back to front, and impossible to properly view. You see, when you learn all this tangguh and appraisal stuff, you develop something like a set of templates in your mind, so that in order to look at a keris and form any sort of supportable opinion you measure the image against the template that is in your mind. What I did with the original image was to manipulate it into an orientation where a proper assessment could be made. In fact, I often do this with published images of keris before I give an opinion, but I have not previously published or explained this.

16th July 2009, 05:33 AM	#15
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,125	You know Alan, i suspected that this was your reasoning and certainly completely valid in that context. But i am afraid that it upset my own personal "photojournalist's ethic of reality" so i just had to present the "correct" orientation.

16th July 2009, 07:07 AM	#16
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Yep. I can understand that David. Ethically, my manipulation sucks, but for the purposes of keris evaluation, its the only one possible.

17th July 2009, 12:14 AM	#17
erikscollectables Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 318	Alan many thanks for the information on the keris. I also learned again from the discussion around how to keep the keris to study it. I did not know something as basic as that yet. Regards, Erik