early 1700s English swords

[urbanspaceman]

Perhaps someone can help me with this issue:
I've previously published a list of blade types Shotley bridge workers were contracted to produce in 1703 (I've attached it again below) but I am at a loss to know exactly what styles of swords would have been in use at that time.
I am aware of the various smallswords (civilian and battlefield) and the brass hilted (Walloon?) horseman's swords (see below) but these were not munitions grade.
Shotley Bridge were turning out thousands of blades for the Tower armoury's general issue, right through the first half of the 1700s and a bit beyond, but it is the early ones that escape me: what was the common British cavalry/soldier/seaman carrying in 1703?

[Jim McDougall]

This is a truly intriguing topic, and one thing that stands out is the term 'scimitar' (though spelled differently).
I had always taken this to be the corrupted transliteration of the Persian 'shamshir' for curved saber applied by the Italian traders. This became generally used for dramatic effect by later Victorian writers to suggest 'flashing oriental sabers in exotic character'.

While the shamshir term of course suggests the curved sabers we know from the Middle Eastern sphere, typically Persian, the term itself is of course more broadly intended in that language.

I am surprised to see it used in quasi official documentation as seen here, which brings me to the question, were such swords with clipped point blades as seen in contemporary art actual weapons, or artistic license?

As seen in the illustration of pirate Henry Avery in Esquemeling (1678) this hanger type 'cutlass' with clipped point is shown, and this resembles drawings of such swords in arms references of latter 19th c.
From 17th century Spanish wrecks clipped tip machetes are seen.

Were clipped point swords being produced as seen here as hangers and.or machete/cutlasses, and were these indeed the mysterious 'scimitar'?

As seen in illustrations: Figure of Avery shows clipped point (1678); next is machete from Spanish galleon Atocha (1622); an example from galleon Maravillas (1656); plate from "Schwert Degen Sabel", Seifert (1962) which shows that by mid 18th c. these clipped points were in some degree termed 'pandour point'.

The two pages from wrecks are from "Small Arms of the Spanish Treasure Fleets" Noel Well, 2006, Keith you will note the obvious error referring to the BTF (bushy tail fox) with H as a running wolf with no reference to the profound differences in the German 'running wolf' and Harvey bushy tail fox, suggesting they were the same as used in both England and Germany.

[fernando]

Will this be of any help ?


http://myarmoury.com/feature_engswords.html

[urbanspaceman]

Fernando: thank-you for the script, it is an interesting read, but unfortunately it only goes to the 1600s and I need the first half of the 1700s.

Thank-you Jim. A fascinating look at a mysterious sword.
That BTF has certainly been augmented with an H which probably indicates William Harvey as the Samuel dynasty mostly used SH.
As I have concluded: these blades marked with the BTF and sold in Birmingham were almost certainly made by Oley in Shotley Bridge; and/or....
according to genealogical records there were Oleys down in Birmingham by then and there were also a few in Sheffield .
The details of blade shapes – especially the cross-sections – captured my attention in several respects, mainly however: Bild 67: blade B. refers to 'grooves' and fullers, which is certainly at variance with common parlance that refers to all as fullers, and should also actually indicate the shape of blade C (a Montmorency) not B.
A fuller is actually the name of the tool used to hammer in a groove and is now called a former; what that page refers to as a fuller is actually a hollow.

[urbanspaceman]

Looking over the Royal Collection and The Royal Armouries it appears that the 'basket' hilt predominated.
I can't find early 1700s munitions grade swords hilted in any other way; surely there must be some?

[urbanspaceman]

Firstly: Fernando, in the list of blades required of the SB smiths that I include in this thread there is something I highlighted called a Portugall Cutt 40 - 48 inches long with 1, 2, or 3 hollows.
It is quite long at 48 inches; do you know what this is?

Jim, Noel Wells talks about "cutlasses illustrated here" recovered from the 1733 Spanish Fleet and having the BTF on the blade; did he provide illustrations of these swords?
Was Birmingham selling swords to the Spanish at that time?

[fernando]

Have i not seen this chart before ? .
Not so easy to figure out what the 'CUTT' term is, most probably old English, even lexicon, that i can not relate to Portuguese terminology. But judging by the specs and the period in question, these would be blades for cup hilted swords. Those were what abounded by then; you can see everyone holding one, even portraid Kings, during the war of restoration 1640-1668 ... and long after. The 48" length is o.k. for these swords ... and within the law. Assuming these lengths in the chart are for the blades including the tang, this corresponds to 'little' over the full (1539 law) sword length, which was 5 palms (spans)... although we know these were 'regularly' exceeded. Concerning the width, 7/8" to 1", this seems to be that of non military cup hilts. As for the 'HOLLOWS', we certainly assume this means fullers. Over here we call them gutters (goteiras), following the famous jazz talk:

The names «bleeder» and «gutter» are alluding to a supposed effect, attributed to this type of notch on the blades of white weapons, of promoting the bleeding of the victim stabbed by the weapon, by offering a channel through which the blood could circulate to outside the body, while the blade was lodged inside the victim. In theory, they could also be used to combat a putative suction or suction effect that could be provided by sticking the blade too deep, which would make it difficult to remove the weapon from the victim's body.
However, such effects have never been scientifically confirmed, and the medieval accounts that mention them are currently believed to be mainly apocryphal.

[fernando]

But if we look at blades #30 and #31 in the chart, the refference to the second one only appears to raise the price, for cutting through a blade identical to that in #30. Could in this case the term CUTT mean blade piercing ? And the double TT only due to the chart writer poor spelling ... as seen in other terms in the said chart ...

[urbanspaceman]

Hi Fernando. It may well be a spelling error.
Is this what they mean by three hollows perhaps (see attached, found online):
What is a cut through blade? I'm not certain I am aware of this.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

... Hi Fernando. It may well be a spelling error. Is this what they mean by three hollows perhaps (see attached, found online):...

Yes Keith, that's what i (i) figure.

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

What is a cut through blade? I'm not certain I am aware of this.

A pierced blade ... i (i)would say ...


.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Firstly: Fernando, in the list of blades required of the SB smiths that I include in this thread there is something I highlighted called a Portugall Cutt 40 - 48 inches long with 1, 2, or 3 hollows.
It is quite long at 48 inches; do you know what this is?

Jim, Noel Wells talks about "cutlasses illustrated here" recovered from the 1733 Spanish Fleet and having the BTF on the blade; did he provide illustrations of these swords?
Was Birmingham selling swords to the Spanish at that time?

Sorry forgot to add that page. Birmingham was a recipient of blades from Germany in degree, just as was Spain in this period. It does not seem that Harvey used the BTF until 1740s, though as you have discovered the BTF may well have originated with Oley in Shotley prior to this.

If not mistaken, this drawing of the hanger blade from the 1733 wrecks with running wolf seems a bit out of context with the Spanish fleet. As seen with the hanger from Henrietta Marie, these staghorn hangers were more English than Spanish, and the Running Wolf appeared on blades from Hounslow.
Birmingham wasnt producing much in 1733 as far as Ive known.

Perhaps these details out of context ? we know the H was only on BTF, never on the running wolf, and it seems only SH occurred....there might have been an H only case.

[urbanspaceman]

Thank-you Fernando.
I may have seen such a thing, but I never gave it any serious consideration until...
Now I'm thinking: to deliberately weaken the forte that way, indicated a great unlikeliness the owner would ever have considered blocking a heavy blow; but I suppose at that time and place everyone would be fighting with rapiers.
It is certainly a fine element of construction: I like it. Thanks again.

Jim:
thoughts spring to mind regarding the presence of possibly English swords on a Spanish ship.
I've heard it was suspected that most seaman fought with whatever they could get their hands on, so captured English blades may well have been acquired.
I also am coming to the conclusion (this may already be established fact) that stag horn was popular for sea-going work; it definitely would do a good job resisting salt erosion and wet conditions better than almost anything else.
This brings to mind my curious clipped point, brass hilted, stag grip machete (see attached) which you suspected might be for sea-going work.

Finally:
I am left with a lack of confirmation as to the type of swords used by British militia in the early 1700s; of the type Cotesworth and Oley were sending to the Tower; Cotesworth being the North East agent for the Hollow Sword Blade Company; Oley being autonomous after 1713 and regarded as the finest sword-blade producer in the country... eventually selling to Birmingham as well, hence the appearance of his BTF modified by the likes of the Samuels and William Harvey et al.
Apropos of that final statement I will include a piece of history that may well interest all:

Around 1830, an interesting story is told to a travelling chronicler visiting Shotley Bridge (William Hone) by one of the Oley descendants: this story accords with established history:*
"James Justice Runkle, a German pedlar, who travelled in this country with his various wares, smuggled over from the continent a quantity of sword-blades, and, with a view of legalizing them and giving them currency, he applied to the father of my informant for permission to put his name upon them. This was accordingly done, and they were sold under the name of Oligar. But government ultimately detected the fraud, and Oley gave evidence in London that the suspected blades had not issued from his manufactory at Shotley."
*History: In 1787, Runkel was brought to trial at the Court of Exchequer for the alleged undervaluing of imported goods. The trial did not run to completion, but concluded when Runkel agreed to settle and pay two thirds of the value of the confiscated swords, as well as all court costs and expenses. His payment came to £1,480.oo: a sum in 1787 that would be worth around £172,600 in today’s money.*