Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
FAQ Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 4th January 2012, 07:23 PM   #1
hbhansen
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Denmark
Posts: 89
Default ID on dagger ?

Hi again.

I have had this one for some time, but actually don't know what kind of a dagger it is, where it's from and how old it is...
The structure of the blade is quite interresting, but I can't see if it's laminated.
Anyone know the stamps ?
Is the handle bone or ivory ?

Thanks
Henrik
Attached Images
          
hbhansen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th January 2012, 05:40 PM   #2
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hbhansen
Hi again.

I have had this one for some time, but actually don't know what kind of a dagger it is, where it's from and how old it is...
The structure of the blade is quite interresting, but I can't see if it's laminated.
Anyone know the stamps ?
Is the handle bone or ivory ?

Thanks
Henrik

Salaams Henrik,
This looks like a Scandanavian hunting knife... possibly Finland "Puuko." Maybe ivory tusk from Walrus or possibly Reindeer Antler?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th January 2012, 06:12 PM   #3
delor
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Marseille - France
Posts: 73
Default

The blade shows no sign of being laminated. It has visible traces of the forging process, as the steel as been almost not grinded on the "rear" side of the blade.
The handle seems to be ivory. Would it be possible to see a photo of the rear part of the handle ? (the inside material of some tusks have a very characteristic aspect).
Regards,
Bernard
delor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th January 2012, 07:10 PM   #4
chregu
Member
 
chregu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: switzerland
Posts: 298
Default

hello together
me too interested with this question, whence comes this knife.
The images come from my piece, had bought it years ago, the dealer did not know where it came from.
short time before had seen a similar piece at an antique market, the pieces all look exactly alike!
The handle is ivory, very fine grain, whether walrus can not be determined. I know the difference!
Scabbard is brown thick leather, covered with a thin skin. I binn not sure sealskin?
Gruss Chregu
Attached Images
   

Last edited by Lew; 9th January 2012 at 11:41 AM.
chregu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th January 2012, 08:21 PM   #5
Gavin Nugent
Member
 
Gavin Nugent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,818
Default

African gets my vote, I have seen this confirmed but I can't recall...Algeria?

Gav
Gavin Nugent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th January 2012, 09:11 PM   #6
Stan S.
Member
 
Stan S.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Brooklyn, NY USA
Posts: 227
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chregu
Scabbard is brown thick leather, covered with a thin skin.

I don't mean to derail but I am somewhat disturbed by the above sentence... Perhaps something was lost in translation?

Last edited by Lew; 9th January 2012 at 11:42 AM.
Stan S. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th January 2012, 09:34 PM   #7
Iain
Member
 
Iain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Olomouc
Posts: 1,693
Default

Stan, that's a literal translation from German for scabbard, it's happened to me as well using Google translate.
Iain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th January 2012, 11:09 PM   #8
laEspadaAncha
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 608
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan S.
I don't mean to derail but I am somewhat disturbed by the above sentence... Perhaps something was lost in translation?
It recalls a certain faulty phrasebook: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYH0pBZdaes

laEspadaAncha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th January 2012, 12:08 AM   #9
Dom
Member
 
Dom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG)
Posts: 1,142
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by freebooter
Algeria?
Hi Gav
forget Algeria, from near or far ... no chance
and, I dunno from where it's come from ...

à +

Dom
Dom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th January 2012, 12:31 AM   #10
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
Default

Any connection?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14807
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th January 2012, 03:54 AM   #11
Gavin Nugent
Member
 
Gavin Nugent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,818
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dom
Hi Gav
forget Algeria, from near or far ... no chance
and, I dunno from where it's come from ...

à +

Dom
Yes but why
Gavin Nugent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th January 2012, 05:02 AM   #12
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,113
Default

An absolutely baseless opinion, but i would look north of Africa.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th January 2012, 07:57 AM   #13
Martin Lubojacky
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Czech Republic
Posts: 841
Default

I would say the shape of the blade and the style of the leather sheath and its loop are not "native-African". (I think if it was originated in Africa, then only as a relatively modern hunter´s accessories.)
Martin Lubojacky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th January 2012, 08:06 AM   #14
chregu
Member
 
chregu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: switzerland
Posts: 298
Default

hello guys
Yes, please grant me a translation program. Smile.
sorry did not notice the error.
Of course, the sheath is meant. smile
not African, my assessment would be more North Asia? The design reminds me of a Dha, how about China?
In any case I've seen too many of the same Knife, to declare it as individual pieces. they are always exactly the same design, also the knife sheaths!
Gruss Chregu
chregu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th January 2012, 10:09 AM   #15
Martin Lubojacky
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Czech Republic
Posts: 841
Default

I would also guess north Asia, What about some of the nations from the north Siberia ?
Martin Lubojacky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th January 2012, 10:18 AM   #16
Gavin Nugent
Member
 
Gavin Nugent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,818
Default

Not limited to but;

Similar bolsters have been seen on Khodmi
The hilt is Elephant ivory
Similar markings on the ivory have also been seen on Khodmi
Similar method of seating the blade in the hilt has been seen on Khodmi despite having no binding.

Yes similar overall profile and circle markings have been seen on SEA knives too but they are not seen with hide coverings, usually better finished blades and timber sheaths bound with rattan or silver. Also they usually have collars, not bolsters.

Artzi has a couple of these attributed to several different regions, Afghanistan, Northwest India, and Pakistan...perhaps AJ or Lofty can chime in for this regions?

The closest I have owned to one was a mid 20th century Turkish hunting knife. The blade on it was named and the hilt was antler but similar blade and method of securing in the antler albeit longer rivet spacing....Turkey and North Africa have had a lot of interaction...could have been a contract fulfilled there much like some cutlers do in Pakistan these days...

Gav
Attached Images
 

Last edited by freebooter; 9th January 2012 at 11:02 AM.
Gavin Nugent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th January 2012, 01:02 PM   #17
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Lubojacky
I would also guess north Asia, What about some of the nations from the north Siberia ?
No, not likely. First, the use of elephant ivory, and second, Siberian tribal knives are orders of magnitude simpler and have no sophisticated designs on the blade.
I am still voting for North India and thereabouts.
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th January 2012, 01:23 PM   #18
Gavin Nugent
Member
 
Gavin Nugent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,818
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
No, not likely. First, the use of elephant ivory, and second, Siberian tribal knives are orders of magnitude simpler and have no sophisticated designs on the blade.
I am still voting for North India and thereabouts.
The red and blacks are seen on Lohar along with the same symbols but then the symbols as discussed in these pages long ago are found in almost every region of the world....
Gavin Nugent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th January 2012, 02:06 PM   #19
chregu
Member
 
chregu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: switzerland
Posts: 298
Default

the decoration on the handle, I do not come on. but which is on the blade is special.
the style it is a good working knife, but the attachment is unusual with the short part in the handle.
In the country of origin is no shortage of ivory.
chregu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th January 2012, 06:57 PM   #20
hbhansen
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Denmark
Posts: 89
Default

Thank you guys !! For all your answers !
Looks like this is a tuff nut to crack But you have all given me some good input, that i can use in my search of the origin of this knife.
Best
Henrik
hbhansen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th January 2012, 07:02 PM   #21
hbhansen
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Denmark
Posts: 89
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chregu
hello together
me too interested with this question, whence comes this knife.
The images come from my piece, had bought it years ago, the dealer did not know where it came from.
short time before had seen a similar piece at an antique market, the pieces all look exactly alike!
The handle is ivory, very fine grain, whether walrus can not be determined. I know the difference!
Scabbard is brown thick leather, covered with a thin skin. I binn not sure sealskin?
Gruss Chregu
That's very interesting ! Theres no doubt in my mind, that these knifes is from the same region. Just a shame that the origin of the knife is lost
Nice knife, thanks for showing.
hbhansen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th January 2012, 07:07 PM   #22
hbhansen
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Denmark
Posts: 89
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by delor
The blade shows no sign of being laminated. It has visible traces of the forging process, as the steel as been almost not grinded on the "rear" side of the blade.
The handle seems to be ivory. Would it be possible to see a photo of the rear part of the handle ? (the inside material of some tusks have a very characteristic aspect).
Regards,
Bernard
Hi Bernard
Here are some additional pictures, hope they are useful.
Best
Henrik
Attached Images
   
hbhansen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th January 2012, 07:08 PM   #23
hbhansen
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Denmark
Posts: 89
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chregu
hello together
me too interested with this question, whence comes this knife.
The images come from my piece, had bought it years ago, the dealer did not know where it came from.
short time before had seen a similar piece at an antique market, the pieces all look exactly alike!
The handle is ivory, very fine grain, whether walrus can not be determined. I know the difference!
Scabbard is brown thick leather, covered with a thin skin. I binn not sure sealskin?
Gruss Chregu
Hi Chregu
Does the size match ?
Best
Henrik
Attached Images
 
hbhansen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th January 2012, 12:34 AM   #24
Dom
Member
 
Dom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG)
Posts: 1,142
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by freebooter
Yes but why
Hi my Friend
BECAUSE ....
my belief was acquired by the ability to review, 7 reference books,
dealing primarily Islamic edged weapons, books that are at home

however, the error is always possible,
that is why we must be cautious in our statements, at least in my case

my personal library concerning this subject
1) Arms & Armor (in English)
2) L'Art des Chevaliers en Pays d'Islam (in French)
3) Swords & Armor (in English)
4) les armes orientales (in French)
5) ABC des armes blanches (Islam) (in French)
6) les armes orientales (in French)
7) armes et armures (in French)

on top of all that, I spent 6 years in Algeria,
I ran Tunisia, as well as Morocco, and I never saw something like this dagger
the quality of the handle, of the scabbard, it's far better than what it's produced in Africa, and the decor (small circles) it's away of what is made in North Africa

HAVE I WELL ANSWERED, YOUR HONOR? Have I convinced ?

à +

Dom
Dom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th January 2012, 01:16 AM   #25
Emanuel
Member
 
Emanuel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1,242
Default

Hello,

We've discussed one of these before, along with a ram-dao like little chopper belonging to Tim:

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...1&page=2&pp=40
http://vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.p...7&postcount=42

The bolster and partial tang say Nepal to me. I would also vote for North Indian.

Regards,
Emanuel
Attached Images
 
Emanuel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th January 2012, 02:20 AM   #26
Gavin Nugent
Member
 
Gavin Nugent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,818
Default More data

Here is a little more food for thought.....

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...t=circle+motif

Not yet convinced of anything...still have not heard a fat lady singing

Gav
Gavin Nugent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th January 2012, 07:09 AM   #27
delor
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Marseille - France
Posts: 73
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hbhansen
Hi Bernard
Here are some additional pictures, hope they are useful.
Best
Henrik
Thanks Henrik,
it confirms the handle is not walrus ivory. Probably elephant ivory as already stated.
The marks on ivory look Afghan or Balkan to me.
Regards,
Bernard
delor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th January 2012, 07:12 PM   #28
hbhansen
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Denmark
Posts: 89
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emanuel
Hello,

We've discussed one of these before, along with a ram-dao like little chopper belonging to Tim:

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...1&page=2&pp=40
http://vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.p...7&postcount=42

The bolster and partial tang say Nepal to me. I would also vote for North Indian.

Regards,
Emanuel
Definitely from the same region !!
hbhansen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th January 2012, 07:16 PM   #29
hbhansen
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Denmark
Posts: 89
Default

Thank you all for your answers. I read the links to the earlier threads an see alot of similarity. I've got a lot to work with now.
hbhansen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th January 2012, 04:58 PM   #30
chregu
Member
 
chregu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: switzerland
Posts: 298
Default

Thanks to everyone for their answers.
here the length of my knife
Attached Images
 
chregu is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:15 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.