Parrying Dagger For Comment

dana_w · 7th June 2017, 09:14 PM

I've been told this parrying dagger is German and dates from the late 16th century. Does anyone recognize the mark?

15 1/2 ounces
16 3/16 inches long overall
5 5/8 inches wide overall
2 1/16 inches tall overall
Blade Length 10 7/8 inches
Blade Width 1 1/16 inches at the guard

Photo (c) 2017 by Dana K. Williams

Jim McDougall · 7th June 2017, 11:11 PM

I think this attribution is pretty much spot on, and this curious mark seems to ring so familiar, yet despite its simplicity it is a tough one to find.

In Wallace Coll. (Mann, 1962, p.371, A728; A729) there are two German 'rondel' daggers described as German first half 16th c.
The marks appearing on both have heavier versions of this dual arcs joined by vertical line mark, stated a makers mark but no identification given. There are apparently others with the same mark in various museum holdings.

The closest thing to this simple device found among makers marks would be that of Johannes Kohl the Elder (1580-1620), which has the arcs, vertical line but with a transverse line bisecting the vertical one (Kinman, p.47). This is one of this family marks, but seems to fall into the probable period of this left hand dagger. These, while falling out of use elsewhere, were becoming more well known en suite with rapiers in Spain and Italy.

Until more precise identification of the mark is found, it seems plausible it may be a variation of these German marks of unidentified maker in mid 16th c. , perhaps adopted in variation by Kohl (he later used a majuscule K or a crucifix.

On the other hand, uh, the 'left'

this could well be an Italian version using that mark from the repertoire of German marks sometimes used in Italy, and produced first half of 17th c. This does seem more compelling given the baroque manner of the motif.

dana_w · 7th June 2017, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

On the other hand, uh, the 'left'

this could well be an Italian version using that mark from the repertoire of German marks sometimes used in Italy, and produced first half of 17th c. This does seem more compelling given the baroque manner of the motif.

Always a pleasure to hear your thoughts, Jim. Unless something more definitive develops I plan on including your speculation when I publish the photos.

dana_w · 8th June 2017, 06:45 PM

There is a Left-Hand Dagger which somewhat resembles mine in Peter Finer's 2002 catalog, item #33. The decoration style is attributed to the Munich School of iron-chisellers. see attached images.

dana_w · 8th June 2017, 07:10 PM

Victoria and Albert Museum, number: M.64-1950
***
Sword with a chiselled steel hilt, blued against a gilt ground, by Daniel or Emanuel Sadeler, Prague or Munich, the blade signed ‘Alonso Perez en Toledo’, 1600-20.

(Sword) Steel, chiselled, blued and gilt.

The chiselling of the hilt is based on designs by Delaune.
***
http://www.vam.ac.uk/blog/engraved-o...enne-delaune-1

Jim McDougall · 8th June 2017, 08:23 PM

Dana, VERY, VERY NICELY DONE!!!
As noted, my speculation was plausible, but your research has I think nailed this spot on. Still puzzled by the mark though.
Thank you for sharing this and all the info....my notes adjusted accordingly.

All the best
Jim

dana_w · 8th June 2017, 08:26 PM

Thanks, Jim. Here are a few more links which others might find helpful.

Parrying Daggers and Poniards, by Leonid Tarassuk, The Metropolitan Museum of Art:
http://www.metmuseum.org/pubs/journa...f.bannered.pdf

Munich School Of Iron-Chisellers:
See: Peter Finer's 2002 Catalog Item 33

See: American Society Of Arms Collectors
GUNS OF THE MUNICH COURT WORKSHOP AND OTHER GERMAN WHEELLOCK GUNS OF THE PERIOD by Charles S. Hendricks
http://americansocietyofarmscollecto..._Hendricks.pdf

Mannerist Pattern-Books:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Mannerism

Etienne Delaune:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89tienne_Delaune

Gonzalo G · 9th June 2017, 02:36 AM

Dana, thank you for your links and your photos.
Regards

7th June 2017, 09:14 PM	#1
dana_w Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Southeast Florida, USA Posts: 429	Parrying Dagger For Comment I've been told this parrying dagger is German and dates from the late 16th century. Does anyone recognize the mark? 15 1/2 ounces 16 3/16 inches long overall 5 5/8 inches wide overall 2 1/16 inches tall overall Blade Length 10 7/8 inches Blade Width 1 1/16 inches at the guard Photo (c) 2017 by Dana K. Williams Attached Images

8th June 2017, 06:45 PM	#4
dana_w Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Southeast Florida, USA Posts: 429	There is a Left-Hand Dagger which somewhat resembles mine in Peter Finer's 2002 catalog, item #33. The decoration style is attributed to the Munich School of iron-chisellers. see attached images. Attached Images

8th June 2017, 07:10 PM	#5
dana_w Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Southeast Florida, USA Posts: 429	Victoria and Albert Museum, number: M.64-1950 * Sword with a chiselled steel hilt, blued against a gilt ground, by Daniel or Emanuel Sadeler, Prague or Munich, the blade signed ‘Alonso Perez en Toledo’, 1600-20. (Sword) Steel, chiselled, blued and gilt. The chiselling of the hilt is based on designs by Delaune. * http://www.vam.ac.uk/blog/engraved-o...enne-delaune-1 Attached Images

7th June 2017, 11:11 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	I think this attribution is pretty much spot on, and this curious mark seems to ring so familiar, yet despite its simplicity it is a tough one to find. In Wallace Coll. (Mann, 1962, p.371, A728; A729) there are two German 'rondel' daggers described as German first half 16th c. The marks appearing on both have heavier versions of this dual arcs joined by vertical line mark, stated a makers mark but no identification given. There are apparently others with the same mark in various museum holdings. The closest thing to this simple device found among makers marks would be that of Johannes Kohl the Elder (1580-1620), which has the arcs, vertical line but with a transverse line bisecting the vertical one (Kinman, p.47). This is one of this family marks, but seems to fall into the probable period of this left hand dagger. These, while falling out of use elsewhere, were becoming more well known en suite with rapiers in Spain and Italy. Until more precise identification of the mark is found, it seems plausible it may be a variation of these German marks of unidentified maker in mid 16th c. , perhaps adopted in variation by Kohl (he later used a majuscule K or a crucifix. On the other hand, uh, the 'left' this could well be an Italian version using that mark from the repertoire of German marks sometimes used in Italy, and produced first half of 17th c. This does seem more compelling given the baroque manner of the motif.

8th June 2017, 08:23 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	Dana, VERY, VERY NICELY DONE!!! As noted, my speculation was plausible, but your research has I think nailed this spot on. Still puzzled by the mark though. Thank you for sharing this and all the info....my notes adjusted accordingly. All the best Jim

8th June 2017, 08:26 PM	#7
dana_w Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Southeast Florida, USA Posts: 429	Thanks, Jim. Here are a few more links which others might find helpful. Parrying Daggers and Poniards, by Leonid Tarassuk, The Metropolitan Museum of Art: http://www.metmuseum.org/pubs/journa...f.bannered.pdf Munich School Of Iron-Chisellers: See: Peter Finer's 2002 Catalog Item 33 See: American Society Of Arms Collectors GUNS OF THE MUNICH COURT WORKSHOP AND OTHER GERMAN WHEELLOCK GUNS OF THE PERIOD by Charles S. Hendricks http://americansocietyofarmscollecto..._Hendricks.pdf Mannerist Pattern-Books: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Mannerism Etienne Delaune: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89tienne_Delaune

9th June 2017, 02:36 AM	#8
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Dana, thank you for your links and your photos. Regards