Curious Moro blade

Ian · 18th March 2006, 10:05 PM

This one just finished. Odd blade. Perhaps the winner can enlighten us as to what it is called.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=6612011401

themorningstar · 18th March 2006, 11:56 PM

it's a sundang.....

Ian · 19th March 2006, 12:50 AM

Of course, how could I not have remembered that?

Thanks morningstar.

Alam Shah · 19th March 2006, 01:12 AM

Hmm...I don't think it's a sundang.
Sundang looks like a Moro (Maguindanao/Maranao) kris.

This hilt is a barong hilt, but the blade, not the typical leaf-shaped profile.

Rick · 19th March 2006, 03:15 PM

Agreed Alam Shah , but it's still a sundang ....

ariel · 19th March 2006, 05:54 PM

What is the definition of sundang, then?

Rick · 19th March 2006, 06:30 PM

Sorry Ariel , I'm on a long overdue vacation ; I'll be serious when I get home .

Bill · 19th March 2006, 10:20 PM

Yakan, wish I had noticed it.

Spunjer · 20th March 2006, 12:11 AM

Quote:

What is the definition of sundang, then?

sundang: widely accepted term for sword in the philippines from aparri to sulu...

Buwaya · 21st March 2006, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill

Yakan, wish I had noticed it.

What makes you think Yakan?

BSMStar · 21st March 2006, 01:00 PM

Maybe Jim Bowie was in the area and lost it... then it got rehilted.

Its one for the books.

LabanTayo · 21st March 2006, 09:51 PM

i'm curious too.....

nechesh · 21st March 2006, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LabanTayo

i'm curious too.....

Then it must be a sundang!

zelbone · 22nd March 2006, 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill

Yakan, wish I had noticed it.

hmmm....been to Basilan lately, and know something we don't know

?

themorningstar · 22nd March 2006, 03:56 AM

it's yakan???

yakan junggayan sundang???
junggayan yakan sundang???
sundang yakan junggayan???

NEW CATERGORY!!!!!

hehehe...

Battara · 24th March 2006, 09:36 PM

I still think it is a floor wax. (SNL

)

VANDOO · 25th March 2006, 04:04 AM

IT WOULD BE A GOOD PHILIPPINE ENTRY FOR THE STEAK KNIVES OF THE WORLD CATAGORY

THE HANDLE IS NICE AND TRADITIONAL BUT THE BLADE LOOKS LIKE SOMETHING HOMEMADE BY SOMEONE OTHER THAN A PROFESHINAL SWORD OR KNIFE MAKER. OF COURSE IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO TELL THE QUALITY OF THE WORKMANSHIP OF THE BLADE FROM THE PICTURES BUT I SUSPECT IT WAS MOSTLY MADE BY STOCK REMOVAL WITH LITTLE OR NO FORGEING WW2 OR LATER. JUST A GUESS FROM THE GUT

LabanTayo · 25th March 2006, 05:58 AM

vandoo,
i havent received the barong yet, so i cant say much yet, but you can see strong lamenation lines throughout the blade in the pictures.

VANDOO · 25th March 2006, 01:52 PM

I HOPE YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT THE BLADE, EITHER WAY IT IS A UNIQUE VARIATION OF FORM WORTHY OF ADDING TO THE MIX OF PHILIPPINO/ MORO WEAPONS IN A COLLECTION. PERHAPS MORE SIMULAR EXAMPLES MAY SHOW UP LATER AND MORE INFORMATION ON THE FORM CAN BE GATHERED. CONGRADULATIONS ON THE MYSTERY KNIFE

I WILL LOOK FORWARD TO YOUR OPINION OF IT WHEN IT IS RECEIVED.

LabanTayo · 1st April 2006, 01:38 AM

well,
i received the weird barong. i cleaned and etched it. it has a swirly pattern, definetely forged. the spine is 3/8" thick.

my uneducated conclusion:

its a yakan jungayyan sundang.

themorningstar · 1st April 2006, 02:24 AM

woohoo!!!
told ya so....

yakan junggayan sundang......

zelbone · 1st April 2006, 09:04 AM

Well....

....after handling this particular sword all I can say is that whoever forged this weapon, knew what he was doing and knew what he was making. It moves like a murderous beast....and that's a good thing

There's no need to classify this one....it speaks for itself.

Mark · 3rd April 2006, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

I still think it is a floor wax. (SNL

)

::snort!!::

BSMStar · 5th April 2006, 07:12 PM

I do not speak the language, but... yakan junggayan sundang must mean, “old Moro head whacker.” It's a beast indeed!

I do not know about it being a floor wax, more like a floor wax remover.. but you got to crack that sucker just right or you'll lose more floor than wax.

Ian · 15th April 2006, 08:48 PM

The blade below has the same curious "neck" at the ricasso as the original subject of this post. The pictures attached here are an example from the island of Sumbawa in the Indoensian archipelago -- Sumbawa lies between Lombok and Flores, just to the north of Sumba.

This is a heavy large knife/short sword that has seen some use. Primarily a chopper that could serve as a general purpose tool and a defensive arm. The blade is laminated and has a prominent hardened edge that appears to have been heat treated. Nicely made blade with a razor-shape edge. I've included a couple of pictures to show the blade and its temper line.

OAL = 20 1/4 in.
Blade = 14 3/4 in.
Hilt = 6 in.
Blade thickness just in front of hilt = 9/32 in.
Blade thickness at maximum width = 1/8 in.
Maximum width of blade = 1 5/8 in.

It seems that the original subject of this post is related to the style shown here, and is perhaps a blade from Sumbawa that was remounted in Moroland. As such, it is probably not a true Moro weapon, but an interesting hybrid.

Ian.

VVV · 15th April 2006, 11:09 PM

Ian,

I am a bit sceptical to that the featured neck is a sign of Sumbawa?
I have 3 different variations of Parang Sumbawa and none of them have that neck.
In van Z p. 135 you can see two examples of a more regular kind of Parang Sumbawa blade that also resembles the blades of mine.

Michael

PS But your Parang definetely looks like Sumbawa with that hilt and scabbard. It's just the neck on your Parang that's unusual IMHO.

Ian · 17th April 2006, 04:10 AM

Michael:

I agree. The Sumbawa examples in van Zonnefeld's book do have different blades. But scanning his book, I cannot find an example of a similar blade attributed elsewhere, yet I have seen several of these same blade styles attributed to "Indonesia" over the years that I've collected blades from SE Asia. Never traced down a more precise geographic origin until this one.

The "Sumbawa" attribution came from the seller who seems to know a bit about SE Asia. As you say, the hilt and scabbard resemble Sumbawa work, but the blade could have been made elsewhere in Indonesia -- perhaps Sumba or even Lombok. The quality of forging of the blade is very good, but the finish is rough and shows grind marks. Above average "village" quality, I would say, so not likely to have come far from Sumbawa.

Ian.

Ian · 17th April 2006, 04:30 AM

One other thing I would add in relation to the original subject of this thread and the Sumbawa (?) blade I show is the apparent similarity of the edges. The pictured item on eBay shows evidence of a hardened edge, which may have been inserted (as many Moro weapons show, perhaps in imitation of Chinese methods) or heat-treated (which is less commonly seen on Moro weapons).

I'm fairly confident that the edge on my sword/knife has been heat-treated differentially because there is evidence of lamination within the hardened area, and there is an obvious narrow transition line between the hardened edge and the body of the blade.

If the new owner of the eBay item were to clean and etch that blade, I think he would find evidence of differential heat-treatment also. IMO this is an unusual finding on Moro pieces and would tend to confirm the use of a blade made elsewhere.

Ian.

Ian · 17th April 2006, 02:04 PM

On looking through van Zonneveld again, there are three illustrations of knives from Sumbawa on p. 74 (figures 281-283) that each show the narrow neck feature. These are the only examples of this feature that I can find in van Z. after looking through the book several times.

Another reference source by Donn F. Draeger, The Weapons & Fighting Arts of Indonesia, offers some further possibilities for this style of blade. In Figure 60, Basic types of Javanese knife and sword blades (p. 100), he has a drawing of a larbango which has a long narrow neck and upswept blade. This is the closest example I've seen so far to the odd Moro blade at the top of this post.

Elsewhere in his book, Draeger shows several knives from the Celebes that also feature a narrow neck: the Bajau parang (Fig. 166, p. 213) which resembles the blade of my Sumbawa knife; and several examples from the Toradja people, including the labo topang, piso, and piso lampakan (Fig. 168, p. 215) and an ublakas or parang upatjara (Fig. 169, p.216).

None of the these knives mentioned in Draeger are included in van Zonneveld's book.

zelbone · 17th April 2006, 03:51 PM

I have to disagree with you, Ian. I've handled this sword and I seriously doubt that the blade was manufactured outside the Philippines. There are other Moro swords besides the kampilan, kris, barung, panabas, pira, bangkung, janap, and gayang. Most swords were made on a custom basis and the original owner probably had this particular one made to fit his fighting style. In fact, to me it handles better than your typical barung.

I see where your coming from of the similarities to swords from Sumbawa with the narrow neck feature. It may be a rarity on a Moro sword, but isn't unheard of among other Filipino swords. There are several narrow necked swords found all across the Philippine archipeligo. Some of these include the plamanko, certain sansibars, binakokos, a few Batangas espadas, a type of bolo from Bicol, and those ubiquitous "talibons" from Leyte and Samar. Here are a few narrow necked sundang from the Philippines to compare to.

18th March 2006, 10:05 PM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,197	Curious Moro blade This one just finished. Odd blade. Perhaps the winner can enlighten us as to what it is called. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=6612011401

19th March 2006, 01:12 AM	#4
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Hmm...I don't think it's a sundang. Sundang looks like a Moro (Maguindanao/Maranao) kris. This hilt is a barong hilt, but the blade, not the typical leaf-shaped profile. Last edited by Alam Shah; 19th March 2006 at 04:52 AM.

21st March 2006, 01:00 PM	#11
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Its a Bo-e Maybe Jim Bowie was in the area and lost it... then it got rehilted. Its one for the books.

15th April 2006, 08:48 PM	#25
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,197	Indonesian blade -- probably from Sumbawa The blade below has the same curious "neck" at the ricasso as the original subject of this post. The pictures attached here are an example from the island of Sumbawa in the Indoensian archipelago -- Sumbawa lies between Lombok and Flores, just to the north of Sumba. This is a heavy large knife/short sword that has seen some use. Primarily a chopper that could serve as a general purpose tool and a defensive arm. The blade is laminated and has a prominent hardened edge that appears to have been heat treated. Nicely made blade with a razor-shape edge. I've included a couple of pictures to show the blade and its temper line. OAL = 20 1/4 in. Blade = 14 3/4 in. Hilt = 6 in. Blade thickness just in front of hilt = 9/32 in. Blade thickness at maximum width = 1/8 in. Maximum width of blade = 1 5/8 in. It seems that the original subject of this post is related to the style shown here, and is perhaps a blade from Sumbawa that was remounted in Moroland. As such, it is probably not a true Moro weapon, but an interesting hybrid. Ian. Attached Images

17th April 2006, 04:30 AM	#28
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,197	Furthermore ... One other thing I would add in relation to the original subject of this thread and the Sumbawa (?) blade I show is the apparent similarity of the edges. The pictured item on eBay shows evidence of a hardened edge, which may have been inserted (as many Moro weapons show, perhaps in imitation of Chinese methods) or heat-treated (which is less commonly seen on Moro weapons). I'm fairly confident that the edge on my sword/knife has been heat-treated differentially because there is evidence of lamination within the hardened area, and there is an obvious narrow transition line between the hardened edge and the body of the blade. If the new owner of the eBay item were to clean and etch that blade, I think he would find evidence of differential heat-treatment also. IMO this is an unusual finding on Moro pieces and would tend to confirm the use of a blade made elsewhere. Ian.

18th March 2006, 11:56 PM	#2
themorningstar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 55	it's a sundang.....

19th March 2006, 12:50 AM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,197	Of course, how could I not have remembered that? Thanks morningstar.

19th March 2006, 03:15 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	Agreed Alam Shah , but it's still a sundang ....

19th March 2006, 05:54 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	What is the definition of sundang, then?

19th March 2006, 06:30 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	Sorry Ariel , I'm on a long overdue vacation ; I'll be serious when I get home .

19th March 2006, 10:20 PM	#8
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Yakan, wish I had noticed it.

21st March 2006, 09:51 PM	#12
LabanTayo Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kansas City Posts: 177	i'm curious too.....

22nd March 2006, 03:56 AM	#15
themorningstar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 55	it's yakan??? yakan junggayan sundang??? junggayan yakan sundang??? sundang yakan junggayan??? NEW CATERGORY!!!!! hehehe...

24th March 2006, 09:36 PM	#16
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	I still think it is a floor wax. (SNL )

25th March 2006, 04:04 AM	#17
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	IT WOULD BE A GOOD PHILIPPINE ENTRY FOR THE STEAK KNIVES OF THE WORLD CATAGORY THE HANDLE IS NICE AND TRADITIONAL BUT THE BLADE LOOKS LIKE SOMETHING HOMEMADE BY SOMEONE OTHER THAN A PROFESHINAL SWORD OR KNIFE MAKER. OF COURSE IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO TELL THE QUALITY OF THE WORKMANSHIP OF THE BLADE FROM THE PICTURES BUT I SUSPECT IT WAS MOSTLY MADE BY STOCK REMOVAL WITH LITTLE OR NO FORGEING WW2 OR LATER. JUST A GUESS FROM THE GUT

25th March 2006, 05:58 AM	#18
LabanTayo Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kansas City Posts: 177	vandoo, i havent received the barong yet, so i cant say much yet, but you can see strong lamenation lines throughout the blade in the pictures.

25th March 2006, 01:52 PM	#19
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I HOPE YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT THE BLADE, EITHER WAY IT IS A UNIQUE VARIATION OF FORM WORTHY OF ADDING TO THE MIX OF PHILIPPINO/ MORO WEAPONS IN A COLLECTION. PERHAPS MORE SIMULAR EXAMPLES MAY SHOW UP LATER AND MORE INFORMATION ON THE FORM CAN BE GATHERED. CONGRADULATIONS ON THE MYSTERY KNIFE I WILL LOOK FORWARD TO YOUR OPINION OF IT WHEN IT IS RECEIVED.

1st April 2006, 01:38 AM	#20
LabanTayo Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kansas City Posts: 177	well, i received the weird barong. i cleaned and etched it. it has a swirly pattern, definetely forged. the spine is 3/8" thick. my uneducated conclusion: its a yakan jungayyan sundang.

1st April 2006, 02:24 AM	#21
themorningstar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 55	woohoo!!! told ya so.... yakan junggayan sundang......

1st April 2006, 09:04 AM	#22
zelbone Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: VISAYAS and MINDANAO Posts: 169	Well.... ....after handling this particular sword all I can say is that whoever forged this weapon, knew what he was doing and knew what he was making. It moves like a murderous beast....and that's a good thing There's no need to classify this one....it speaks for itself.

5th April 2006, 07:12 PM	#24
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	I do not speak the language, but... yakan junggayan sundang must mean, “old Moro head whacker.” It's a beast indeed! I do not know about it being a floor wax, more like a floor wax remover.. but you got to crack that sucker just right or you'll lose more floor than wax.

15th April 2006, 11:09 PM	#26
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Ian, I am a bit sceptical to that the featured neck is a sign of Sumbawa? I have 3 different variations of Parang Sumbawa and none of them have that neck. In van Z p. 135 you can see two examples of a more regular kind of Parang Sumbawa blade that also resembles the blades of mine. Michael PS But your Parang definetely looks like Sumbawa with that hilt and scabbard. It's just the neck on your Parang that's unusual IMHO.

17th April 2006, 04:10 AM	#27
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,197	Michael: I agree. The Sumbawa examples in van Zonnefeld's book do have different blades. But scanning his book, I cannot find an example of a similar blade attributed elsewhere, yet I have seen several of these same blade styles attributed to "Indonesia" over the years that I've collected blades from SE Asia. Never traced down a more precise geographic origin until this one. The "Sumbawa" attribution came from the seller who seems to know a bit about SE Asia. As you say, the hilt and scabbard resemble Sumbawa work, but the blade could have been made elsewhere in Indonesia -- perhaps Sumba or even Lombok. The quality of forging of the blade is very good, but the finish is rough and shows grind marks. Above average "village" quality, I would say, so not likely to have come far from Sumbawa. Ian.

17th April 2006, 02:04 PM	#29
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,197	Additional research ... On looking through van Zonneveld again, there are three illustrations of knives from Sumbawa on p. 74 (figures 281-283) that each show the narrow neck feature. These are the only examples of this feature that I can find in van Z. after looking through the book several times. Another reference source by Donn F. Draeger, The Weapons & Fighting Arts of Indonesia, offers some further possibilities for this style of blade. In Figure 60, Basic types of Javanese knife and sword blades (p. 100), he has a drawing of a larbango which has a long narrow neck and upswept blade. This is the closest example I've seen so far to the odd Moro blade at the top of this post. Elsewhere in his book, Draeger shows several knives from the Celebes that also feature a narrow neck: the Bajau parang (Fig. 166, p. 213) which resembles the blade of my Sumbawa knife; and several examples from the Toradja people, including the labo topang, piso, and piso lampakan (Fig. 168, p. 215) and an ublakas or parang upatjara (Fig. 169, p.216). None of the these knives mentioned in Draeger are included in van Zonneveld's book.

17th April 2006, 03:51 PM	#30
zelbone Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: VISAYAS and MINDANAO Posts: 169	I have to disagree with you, Ian. I've handled this sword and I seriously doubt that the blade was manufactured outside the Philippines. There are other Moro swords besides the kampilan, kris, barung, panabas, pira, bangkung, janap, and gayang. Most swords were made on a custom basis and the original owner probably had this particular one made to fit his fighting style. In fact, to me it handles better than your typical barung. I see where your coming from of the similarities to swords from Sumbawa with the narrow neck feature. It may be a rarity on a Moro sword, but isn't unheard of among other Filipino swords. There are several narrow necked swords found all across the Philippine archipeligo. Some of these include the plamanko, certain sansibars, binakokos, a few Batangas espadas, a type of bolo from Bicol, and those ubiquitous "talibons" from Leyte and Samar. Here are a few narrow necked sundang from the Philippines to compare to. Attached Images