South Arabian spears

[colin henshaw]

These are quite an unusual acquisition ... two spears from the Arabian Peninsula, probably Yemen. Points of interest are the iron "sleeve" to the spearhead and the faceting of the shaft and sleeve to one of the spears. This reminds me of similar work to be found on spears from the Horn of Africa region.

Comments, observations and references etc are welcome. Anyone have similar examples for comparison ?

[kahnjar1]

Hi Colin,
Interesting items indeed. Are you able to provide provenance linking these firmly to Arabia?
There is a short chapter in Elgoods's Arms and Armour of Arabia dealing with Lances and Spears, but the suggestion there is that the length of these is a good deal more than those illustrated in your Post (Quote "at least 12ft long). I have seen somewhere in a book, a pic of Arabian spears but for now I can not locate it. Mention of Arabian spears in general seems very sparce.
Nice items........
Stu

[kronckew]

Thread here at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...5&page=2&pp=30 regarding arabian lances/spears. Looks like they had rather long lances, but also shorter spears for throwing.

Here's a new one showing arms inside the Fort Masmak at Riyadh, and some spearheads at the King Faisal Centre.

[kronckew]

for interest: the capture of the fort by King AbdulAziz in the early 20c., note the spear stuck in the main door frame. they threw it just as the door closed. The tip is still in the door frame.

[colin henshaw]

Thanks to Stu and Wayne for their comments on these spears.

At the moment I don't have a firm provenance for the spears, but I am making enquiries and will post the outcome.

Here is an old illustration of spears from South Yemen as previously posted by Richard G, showing an example of shorter length, similar to mine.

[colin henshaw]

Regarding provenance to the spears... I have today been advised by the auction house, that the spears (along with a matchlock also in the sale), belonged to someone who was stationed in Yemen at one time.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

Regarding provenance to the spears... I have today been advised by the auction house, that the spears (along with a matchlock also in the sale), belonged to someone who was stationed in Yemen at one time.

Thanks Colin, but that does not necessarily mean that they are Yemeni/Arabian by origin. I am not trying to throw cold water on the origin of your spears but most reference (and pics) posted here seems to relate to lances rather than spears.
As you will probably note, the link to the old post regarding these spears was started by me several years ago (2010), and virtually nothing surfaced at that time, except for some details of lances.
It is nice to see that this time there is some constructive discussion.
Stu

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Great picture of the Yemeni Sheikh with a spear … Please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17308

These are similar to Omani spears and Khanjar 1 is correct about rarity indeed there are so few I have only seen one which is in the Richardson and Dor.. see above reference .(The historical catalog of Omani Traditional artefacts ) It was the primary weapon before gunpowder but gradually became superseded although it passed on its name to the rifle weapon Rumi or Roomi or ar Rumh the Arabic word for spear which was probably taken from the word for Rome and likely to come directly from the Romans meant long pointed leaf and adopted for spear... which in turn was adopted for long gun.

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Great picture of the Yemeni Sheikh with a spear … Please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17308

These are similar to Omani spears and Khanjar 1 is correct about rarity indeed there are so few I have only seen one which is in the Richardson and Dor.. see above reference .(The historical catalog of Omani Traditional artefacts ) It was the primary weapon before gunpowder but gradually became superseded although it passed on its name to the rifle weapon Rumi or Roomi or ar Rumh the Arabic word for spear which was probably taken from the word for Rome and likely to come directly from the Romans meant long pointed leaf and adopted for spear... which in turn was adopted for long gun.

Rumh رمح and Rum روم have nothing in common. Arabs do not call spears Rumi, not in the past and not in the present. Rumh, Shalfa and Gena are the names most commonly used through out the Arab world. And the name for spear did not get passed down to a fire arm. This is pure misinformation that has no linguistic or historic background. I advice forum moderates to nominate anyone who can speak and read Arabic to moderate such misinformation that somehow get passed out as facts.

On topic: Arab spears are an interesting topic, the most interesting part about them is that ones you'd find used by Arabs in Syria or Nejd or as far south as Yemen, would look nearly identical thus likely pointing to being sourced by majority from a single producing region. Blades vary, some I have shown in the forum with Qama blades. Some have good quality steel but most are iron, with a few rare ones with bronze spear heads fitted to an iron shaft.

Elgood mentions a production centre in Iraq and historically, AlTaif in alHassa is famed for producing a type of spears, with some reference going back to pre islamic times.

Lances too are also produced locally, with some confused for spear butts.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Rumh رمح and Rum روم have nothing in common. Arabs do not call spears Rumi, not in the past and not in the present. Rumh, Shalfa and Gena are the names most commonly used through out the Arab world. And the name for spear did not get passed down to a fire arm. This is pure misinformation that has no linguistic or historic background. I advice forum moderates to nominate anyone who can speak and read Arabic to moderate such misinformation that somehow get passed out as facts.

On topic: Arab spears are an interesting topic, the most interesting part about them is that ones you'd find used by Arabs in Syria or Nejd or as far south as Yemen, would look nearly identical thus likely pointing to being sourced by majority from a single producing region. Blades vary, some I have shown in the forum with Qama blades. Some have good quality steel but most are iron, with a few rare ones with bronze spear heads fitted to an iron shaft.

Elgood mentions a production centre in Iraq and historically, AlTaif in alHassa is famed for producing a type of spears, with some reference going back to pre islamic times.

Lances too are also produced locally, with some confused for spear butts.

Wonderfully authoritative and informative insight, especially in the perspective that there is more consistency in forms of spears and lances throughout the Arab world. I have always regarded that definition as far broader in definition than Arabia alone, as the Arabs of course populated many other places significantly.

With the terms noted Rumh, Shalfa and Gena, it seems these are indeed proper terms used, however, though I am no linguist, there does not seem to be any documented or reliable etymological explanation for loan words used locally, or in various contexts.

For example, Elgood notes terms used to describe various swords (by blades it seems typically) as the term 'shintayan' MAY refer to St. Etienne(France); or the term 'majar' MAY refer to 'Hungarian' (blades often seen on swords in Arabia), while 'al Hindi' of course refers to Indian.

Is it not possible that colloquially, in this manner of loan words describing certain character of a weapon or even origin of a term might extend in the same manner to 'rumh' as rumi' . Often such uses are nearly impossible to detect etymologically, as has often been seen in countless examples.


With the extension of the term for spear/lance colloquially, in military contexts, as I know Ibrahiim is deeply familiar, terms are often used toward weapons in slang or vernular use which are obviously not the proper one for the weapon. A heavy machine gun is often termed a 'saw', while obviously not the cutting tool..and so on . As the Rumh was a traditional weapon used by tribesmen, why would such troops not use a traditional term colloquially referring to their rifles?

Clearly these kinds of uses are not known to many, nor commonly, outside such military circles, and are not documented accordingly.


It is interesting to see perspective from clearly different sides, and to be able to learn more from them. I am under the impression that Bedouin tribes vary dramatically throughout the regions they occupy, and am curious about not only the terms they would use for these type weapons, which also vary in use and form as well.


Also, I am curious about the idea of a central location for production of these weapons, as my impression of the spears/lances used by various tribal populations were often repurposed and sometimes composite items produced locally. With the differences in semantics and perhaps dialect, it seems there might be any number of local terms or expressions....at least that is the way it is in many other cultural spheres.

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Wonderfully authoritative and informative insight, especially in the perspective that there is more consistency in forms of spears and lances throughout the Arab world. I have always regarded that definition as far broader in definition than Arabia alone, as the Arabs of course populated many other places significantly.

With the terms noted Rumh, Shalfa and Gena, it seems these are indeed proper terms used, however, though I am no linguist, there does not seem to be any documented or reliable etymological explanation for loan words used locally, or in various contexts.

For example, Elgood notes terms used to describe various swords (by blades it seems typically) as the term 'shintayan' MAY refer to St. Etienne(France); or the term 'majar' MAY refer to 'Hungarian' (blades often seen on swords in Arabia), while 'al Hindi' of course refers to Indian.

Is it not possible that colloquially, in this manner of loan words describing certain character of a weapon or even origin of a term might extend in the same manner to 'rumh' as rumi' . Often such uses are nearly impossible to detect etymologically, as has often been seen in countless examples.


With the extension of the term for spear/lance colloquially, in military contexts, as I know Ibrahiim is deeply familiar, terms are often used toward weapons in slang or vernular use which are obviously not the proper one for the weapon. A heavy machine gun is often termed a 'saw', while obviously not the cutting tool..and so on . As the Rumh was a traditional weapon used by tribesmen, why would such troops not use a traditional term colloquially referring to their rifles?

Clearly these kinds of uses are not known to many, nor commonly, outside such military circles, and are not documented accordingly.


It is interesting to see perspective from clearly different sides, and to be able to learn more from them. I am under the impression that Bedouin tribes vary dramatically throughout the regions they occupy, and am curious about not only the terms they would use for these type weapons, which also vary in use and form as well.

Jim,

I understand the confusion from a non Arab speaker's position. But beyond that, even with minimal ability to read Arab letters is enough to dismiss this absurdity.

For a comparison, this connection between Rumi and Rumh sounds as ridiculous as claiming the word 'sword' originates from the word 'sweet' simply because the first two letters are the same. There is simply no chance. The word Rumh is not a loan word. It is very much a codified word that has mention in Arab literature through out history.

Edition:

As some may know, Arabic words tend to have an origin word. The word Rumh رمح happens to be one. From this origin word comes many other words including verbs and nouns. that can be easily looked up in any Arabic dictionary. The absurdity of claiming an original Arabic word for the most basic and oldest of weapons in human history to be an abbreviation of Rum is absurd. It also sends forth all forms of misinformation, did the Arabs discover the spear through the Romans? let this sink in for a little bit.

Also, another missed bit of misinformation is claiming Rum refers to Rome. Anyone with a basic read through Islamic history and Arab terminology knows that when Rum is mentioned geographically it refers to the land now known as Turkey. And as people, it refers to the Eastern Roman Empire.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Jim,

I understand the confusion from a non Arab speaker's position. But beyond that, even with minimal ability to read Arab letters is enough to dismiss this absurdity.

For a comparison, this connection between Rumi and Rumh sounds as ridiculous as claiming the word 'sword' originates from the word 'sweet' simply because the first two letters are the same. There is simply no chance. The word Rumh is not a loan word. It is very much a codified word that has mention in Arab literature through out history.

Thank you for the explanation, which again well explains your perspective, and while clearly and understandably quite personal, is a bit strongly worded. I have always felt it imperative in discussion to acknowledge and entertain other views without discount or rebuke, as in many cases even explanations which may seem ridiculous to some may have some bearing. In any case I appreciate your views in the manner I have noted.


With that it would be great to get back to the discussion on spears, and can you say more on the word Rumh? You use the term 'codified', does that mean obliquely, etymologically explained? Can Arabic words be identified in accord with etymological explanation in the manner of English etc. ? or are the identifications broader? There are some interesting explanations in discussion of weapons in "Armies of the Caliphs" by Hugh Kennedy.

If you know this reference, your take please.

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you for the explanation, which again well explains your perspective, and while clearly and understandably quite personal, is a bit strongly worded. I have always felt it imperative in discussion to acknowledge and entertain other views without discount or rebuke, as in many cases even explanations which may seem ridiculous to some may have some bearing. In any case I appreciate your views in the manner I have noted.

Jim. I appreciate your effort to try and be a middle man. But what I am saying is not a perspective. Its pretty much Arabian linguistic facts. Your lack of knowledge and Ibrahim's obvious ignorance in the Arabic language should not be grounds for misinformation. Here we have a clear example of an English man pretending to be Arab (or a Baluch in this case) using English Transliteration of Arab words to come forth with the most laughable of arguments.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Jim. I appreciate your effort to try and be a middle man. But what I am saying is not a perspective. Its pretty much Arabian linguistic facts. Your lack of knowledge and Ibrahim's obvious ignorance in the Arabic language should not be grounds for misinformation. Here we have a clear example of an English man pretending to be Arab (or a Baluch in this case) using English Transliteration of Arab words to come forth with the most laughable of arguments.

Far beneath you Lofty, or perhaps not. I dont think my comments and observations warrant your comment regarding lack of knowledge as they were expressed as suggestions with reasonable plausibility. Your accusations on Ibrahiim are personal and misplaced here. I do not believe the use of a pseudonym, a well known custom here and on many forums, constitutes any form of ethnic deception here any more than in the areas he has lived for many years.I am sure the moderators will answer your call and your goals realized.

[kahnjar1]

While I do not wish to become involved in the origins of words, I do sincerely hope that this does not lead to this thread being locked, as the discussion about Spears and Lances was developing nicely.............
Stu

[colin henshaw]

Yes, Stu is right. Its regrettable my thread should develop in such a direction.

Lets stick to the subject of Arabian spears in a respectful manner !

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks very much Stu and Colin...….I totally agree, and do not wish to see that either. I cannot see any reason why we should not continue without personality issues and clearly there is a lot to be learned about these Arabian spears and I intend to focus on that in any future entries.
Onward, and above all, upward!

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Far beneath you Lofty, or perhaps not. I dont think my comments and observations warrant your comment regarding lack of knowledge as they were expressed as suggestions with reasonable plausibility. Your accusations on Ibrahiim are personal and misplaced here. I do not believe the use of a pseudonym, a well known custom here and on many forums, constitutes any form of ethnic deception here any more than in the areas he has lived for many years.I am sure the moderators will answer your call and your goals realized.

Jim, I find it odd that you find my comment on lack of knowledge to be offensive. My question to you, do you have the knowledge to read an Arabic word without a transliteration? Or the ability examine a basic Arab dictionary, which happens to be the requirement to understanding the absurdity of claiming Rumh is taken from the word Rum?

https://www.almaany.com/ar/dict/ar-ar/معنى-كلمة-رمح/

Are you capable of understanding the text here, if so, by all means prove it beyond the use of English transliteration which carry no weight at all.

Also, Ibrahim alBalushi of alBuraimi is an existing person, who i doubt knows of how his identity is used. This is not your random nickname.

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

Yes, Stu is right. Its regrettable my thread should develop in such a direction.

Lets stick to the subject of Arabian spears in a respectful manner !

Noted.

[TVV]

When it comes to actual field research and knowledge of Arab arms, Lotfy has proven over the years that he is a very reliable source of information, and his research is much more thorough than wikipedia and google images. Keeping this in mind, I too am following this thread and hope it does not get closed, as Arab spears, lances and javelins is a very interesting subject.

Teodor

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

These are quite an unusual acquisition ... two spears from the Arabian Peninsula, probably Yemen. Points of interest are the iron "sleeve" to the spearhead and the faceting of the shaft and sleeve to one of the spears. This reminds me of similar work to be found on spears from the Horn of Africa region.

Comments, observations and references etc are welcome. Anyone have similar examples for comparison ?

Excellent thread Colin and others who have contributed constructively … So that the likeness in spears can be observed with reference I have placed the book by Richardson and Dor below with the page number shown. Talking with my colleagues and local people they call the long firearm often referred to as abu Futtilla also by an older name ..Roomi. That a fact which appears to have developed from the famous spear as a carry forward name for the long gun which if you think about it makes abundant sense. Im not entirely sure if the book shown says it is the Ruhm or the Rumh as it is a few kilometres away and on this I'm working from memory. I don't know if that name is used across the border in the Yemen.
This is a great thread since it examines an extremely rare arabian weapon hardly ever seen but which was probably the main one used in battles before gunpowder and superseded by it.


FROM PAGE 453 "Richardson and Dorr" The Craft Herritage of Oman ~

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Jim, I find it odd that you find my comment on lack of knowledge to be offensive. My question to you, do you have the knowledge to read an Arabic word without a transliteration? Or the ability examine a basic Arab dictionary, which happens to be the requirement to understanding the absurdity of claiming Rumh is taken from the word Rum?

https://www.almaany.com/ar/dict/ar-ar/معنى-كلمة-رمح/

Are you capable of understanding the text here, if so, by all means prove it beyond the use of English transliteration which carry no weight at all.

Also, Ibrahim alBalushi of alBuraimi is an existing person, who i doubt knows of how his identity is used. This is not your random nickname.

Lofty, I appreciate your explanation, and it is true, I do not speak nor read Arabic (I wish I did as I admire the knowledge it contains).....however your choice if words were what I referred to. I admit I rely on others who are well versed in Arabic or sources I consider reliable. ....but I hardly consider that renders my access to research sources or my knowledge insufficient. Your point is well taken, I cannot make the judgement myself, which was why my comments were offered only as suggestions....not assertions.


As Teodor has expressed, your knowledge in Arabian arms has been often constructive in threads and discussions, however I think it is important to recognize that others 'in the field' have opinions and observations which should be equally considered. They are not intended as 'misinformation' and to rebut or correct information should be rendered courteously, much as others respond to your entries.


It is a great thread, and I hope to learn more on these weapons. I admit I do rely a great deal on Wikipedia to provide overview for further research. Also on various online sources, it is noted that the term RUM refers in instances to Turkish citizens of Greek ethnicity, and RAMAH refers to a shaft, spear, pike or javelin.

Interestingly the term HARBA refers to a bayonet or spear.


I will pose this as a question NOT a comment so as not to appear absurd.


Is it possible that a rifle, with bayonet mounted, thus becoming a stabbing implement.....a spear or lance....might be construed by that term loosely in a military parlance?



Are there notable differences in local dialects, particularly Bedouin , as far as Arabic; in Omani or other regional cases? I know that Lofty is well versed in these matters and the differences between these tribes is intriguing.

[Ian]

Gentlemen:

This thread is being watched closely. The tone of some comments has been testy and personal. The efforts of other members to calm the waters is much appreciated and I would urge those addressed to heed their comments. This is an interesting thread and it would be a shame to shut it down. If it becomes necessary to close this thread there will be suspensions for those responsible.

Ian

[colin henshaw]

Here are some more images of Arabian spears and lances I have found, including a painting of the explorer R.F. Burton, from his book "Personal Narrative of a Pilgrimage to El-Medinah and Meccah" 1855/56.

Also attached are some extracts from the book "Sultan to Sultan" by Mrs French-Sheldon 1892. They relate to her stop in Aden on her way to East Africa. The rather poor quality image appears to show an Omani or Yemeni man holding a spear.

A further point I thought to mention is... the lozenge-shaped incised decoration to the iron butt of one of my spears is similar to the decorative applied element often to be found on dagger sheaths in Southern Arabia ?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Interesting as I was looking at decorative Omani lozenges and have earmarked a Talismanic devil style shape( I will place later) which may be related on Omani silver jewelery… Note the faint 5 dots inside the central rectangle likely to be hand of Fatima geometry thus for protection.

[Jim McDougall]

The more I read this thread, the more intrigued I am by the topic of the original post, and the subject of Arab spears. I have to admit I have never really focused on these particular weapons, nor fully realized how important they were in Arabia. According to the traveler T. Burckhardt in the 1830s, '..the most common weapon of the Arabs were their lances' (Elgood, 1994, p.66). I had always had the impression the sword was the key weapon they used.

In the original post, Colin was asking about the term and possible origin with which to classify the two shafted weapons he has, which has revealed the obvious difficulty in accurately applying same to these to universal satisfaction.

It seems that while there are terms used which would denote a broad head (shalfa) or narrow head (harba), (Elgood, p.67) these descriptive terms are far from exclusively used in different regions and by various tribes etc. While some refer to the point/head as 'kentad' and the spike inserting it into the shaft as harbe, in Syria the point is termed the harbe.
Then it is noted (p.66) that the lance in North Arabia in the 19th c. is known as 'shalfa' or 'rumh'.

As might be expected, with the diversity of the tribes of the Bedouin over the considerable distances of the regions they occupy, there is apparently a notable disparity in the use of terms used for the shafted weapons in use.
This is of course complicated by their size (length) and how they are used (as javelin, spear or lance).

It does not seem that such terms documented on such weapons in one region would necessarily cover those used in local parlance of other tribes or inhabitants of other regions in the Arab world. Writers and travelers trying to document the names of these weapons were of course subject to the transliteration issues from information they were given.

Noting the seemingly often colloquial use of descriptive terms for the weapons, which were of utmost importance to the Arab, I was reading some of the colorful and fascinating terms used toward rifles for example.
It seems often the reference was directed toward the size or magazine capacity, as with the Winchester repeating rifle, 'the mother of 17'. The short British rifle was apparently often termed 'sharfa'. While this term was compellingly close to the term 'shalfa' (one form of lance) it is obviously not the same word, and from what I found meant loosely 'baby girl' probably referring to the smaller (carbine?) size.

The point is that it would seem there are not only many terms and names for these weapons which are often, if not typically, applied in varying degree of descriptive reference, some almost fanciful. In many cases even the type of wood (rattan etc.) might be applied to the name of the particular weapon.

This is all part of the exciting fascination of these weapons, among quite honestly, the entire culture of Arabia and the Arab world, and why our sincere study of these people is given such dimension and dynamics through their weaponry.

Naturally I welcome the insight of others toward the observations I have noted here from the resources I have cited, as learning is my objective.

Further, I am really fascinated by the talismanic properties described in the previous posts and look forward to developing more on them as well.

[kahnjar1]

Nice lot of pics on the thread now, but description of the shaft of ARABIAN spears states the shaft is (usually) bamboo. Many of those shown appear to to be of some other wood (not that it means they are not Arabian)....just an observation.
Stu

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Nice lot of pics on the thread now, but description of the shaft of ARABIAN spears states the shaft is (usually) bamboo. Many of those shown appear to to be of some other wood (not that it means they are not Arabian)....just an observation.
Stu

Good observation, and it does seem that virtually all these Arabian shafted weapons do seem to have used various types of bamboo, reed and cane in their shafts. Most of the entries I read in Elgood noted that these woods were used from early times and brought in from various places.

The shafts on some of these appear to be smooth and not ribbed like I always think of bamboo, but it seems botanically (NOT my area by far) there are male and female plants.

In the entries that comment on the scarcity of these lances, spears and javelins it does seem that one of the factors that may contribute to this is that the shafts have not survived. Possibly numbers of these heads and butt items have been rehafted with hard woods of other kinds. Elgood does note one type of javelin (mizrak) from the Hijaz with a shaft of 'hard, pliant wood' which was of unknown identity.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

If I can just add what I have about the Talisman effects but not to forget the trade in the region bringing bamboo and other timber across from India and Africa as well as locally grown bamboo etc
The lozenge shape is apparent in many metal objects and similar to the spear butt decoration . I illustrate a rather long winded phrase to describe this object as an Islamic Architectural Talisman Nail... used to ward off evil spirits from newly built houses by being hammered into the area above the main door. The lozenge even appears with similar dots which may in the 3 or 5 dot configuration...

I have a picture somewhere of another devil style decorative object of similar shape which I will add as this thread develops. I have some battle scenes where the spear plays an important role and will add later.

See Below ~ Islamic Architectural Talisman Nail...Next to project spear end.

[colin henshaw]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Interesting as I was looking at decorative Omani lozenges and have earmarked a Talismanic devil style shape( I will place later) which may be related on Omani silver jewelery… Note the faint 5 dots inside the central rectangle likely to be hand of Fatima geometry thus for protection.

H'mm interesting. It seems the Hand of Fatima symbol has been associated with weapons since ancient times. E A Wallis Budge in his book "Amulets and Superstitions" 1930, makes mention of the amulet being attached to weapons (including spears) to confer power and strength to both the weapon and user.

Extracts from the book attached.