Fire Lances

[Andi]

Marcus den toom posed at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=174886

Originally Posted by Marcus den toom

Hi Andi,

.....

How would such a incendiary torch work Andi? It seems to me that the burning mass should be propelled some way before it gets trough and over the city walls?

Originally Posted by Marcus den toom

Any thoughts on the above and below images?
I reposted the one with the city under siege... it looks like some wooden pole gun?
The third image is black powder in a "mortar" beeing prepaired/made.

[Andi]

Probably it could be an object like the one facing to the top left corner a page of Franz Helm: Buch von den probierten Künsten (on well-tried arts), printed in 1535. A long poled weapon carrying an incendiary substance on its tip.

[Andi]

Or it could be an object similar to the two tar lances from Emden Arsenal in Lower Saxony, Germany from the 16th or 17th century. (Photo earlier posted by Matchlock)

Even the multibarry object of the second image taken from Hartliebs: Kriegsbuch / Konrad Kyesers Bellifortis of 1411 from Österreichische Nationalbibliothek Wien Cod. 3069 seems to me to be more likely a fire lance than a multibarrel handgonne.

[Marcus den toom]

Hi Andi,

I like the idea but...
there would be some technical problems setting the city on fire with a fire lanz when there is a moat around the city? Also Franz Helm has been know for window dressing his books with imaginary things.
It wouldn't be such a succes making a fire lanz completly out of wood either?

I doubt it is a tar lance, those tar lances where shot by balista's and had incendiary loads inside the barrrels made of iron.

I am not saying it is not a fire lance, but it is not yet clear to me how such a weapon could be used in a situation as portrait at the manuscript of Judith and Holofernes.
It shows a city on fire and one (possible) fire lance flaming. A moat surrounds and blocks the path to the city so no direct contact can be made.

I this situation i am sure they would rather have used incendiary arrows. The depiction is in my eyes (for the moment) only to show of this "magical" weapon (propaganda maybe?) Also the whole picture is out of proportion or someone really liked bonsai trees. Not uncommon though in the (late) medieval times to draw important things out of scale.

[Andi]

I think the image of Judith and Holophernes does not realistically show an incident in a natural way. I guess the illuminator just wanted to show that Holophernes is burning down a city therefore he iconographically painted Holophernes with an incendiary weapon despite it has been used this way or not - but all the spectators of the image will clearly know what is ment. A problem we always face when reading a historic images.

Of corse the window dressing of the early authors is an other problem as every Büchsenmeister (bussenmester) tried to exaggerate his knowledge and camouflage his recipes as they were not interested to spread their knowledge to competitors nore they wanted only to sell their books. The fireworks books maybe can be interpreted as an application paper or catalogue for their services to lords of castles or city mayors.

Actually I am not sure how to interpret the weapons, that of Holopernes the Kriegsbuch of 1411 and the one of Franz Helm. Also my actual experience with this type of weapons is too poor presently - There is so mutch more to learn... Probably our friend Matchlock has a clue?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Marcus den toom

... How would such a incendiary torch work Andi? It seems to me that the burning mass should be propelled some way before it gets trough and over the city walls?...

Forgive me for being so simplistic, but ...
Haven't propulsion issues been resolved by that time, i mean, not necessarily the good old gunpowder but some kind of greek fire parent?


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