Ming jian

josh stout · 11th January 2008, 03:59 PM

There is some disagreement about village made jian with "one piece" guards and pommels. My best understanding of the situation is that there were a large number of these weapons made for irregular groups that sprang up at the beginning and the end of the Qing. There were also similar ones made throughout the Qing thus blurring stylistic elements and making dating difficult.

This is what I think is a Ming jian from the end of the dynasty. The patina is quite thick and dark, while the style is typical of Ming jian with a typical large pommel and upturned guard.

Mid 17th C village made jian:

http://s77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...81E5899100.jpg

http://s77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...81E5899102.jpg

Jim McDougall · 12th January 2008, 01:14 AM

It is not often that we are able to really examine and discuss genuinely old Chinese edged weapons, and this piece is especially fascinating. With my own limited knowledge of Asian weapons, I would just like to add some observations, and naturally hope for those of others who study these weapons with more focus.

The patination and age apparant here indeed suggest this sword to be of quite possibly of 17th century, and since Ming attribution is suggested, it is important to note that the northern Ming dynasty fell in 1644 to the Qing (Manchu). The southern Ming did hold out until 1662, but were then overtaken as well.
Since the Ming were the last true Han Chinese to rule, the Chinese deeply resented thier suzerainty to thier foreign overlords, the Manchurian Qing, and throughout that rule (ended 1912) many variations of the ever standing Triad groups sought to overthrow the Qing and restore the Ming power. Naturally this is a simplified perspective that will likely bring forth other detail, but the point is that secret societies have existed in China from as early as 9 AD, and continue to present times.
In the period of the sword we are looking at, one of the main themes of these groups was as noted, to restore true Chinese rule, the Ming.

The sword itself appears to indeed be a very crudely made interpretation of the Chinese jian, and the rudimentary elements of the hilt approximate the pommel and quillon block in most stylized form. As has been suggested, this sword was probably fashioned by a village smith. The most curious thing to me is why would the style of the jian be chosen?

By the end of the Ming dynasty, the jian appears to have become of minor favor as a weapon, with daos with slight curved blades more prevalent militarily (though it is suggested that Ming cavalry are seldom shown with swords).

One secret society that seemed well in place by the end of the 17th century was the Hung Mun (in Cantonese), whose goals were to further religious beliefs and encourage Chinese nationalism. In order to avoid being banned apparantly they took the title Tian Diu Hui (Heaven and Earth Society) , though I am not sure how this would have protected them, in fact many thousands of these individuals were destroyed.

It seems that the jian was used primarily by nobles, and remained more of a dress or court sword (though we know these are entirely deadly...I have seen breathtaking demonstrations by Scott Rodell!). If not mistaken, the jian was also a symbolic item held in great esteem by scholars. In looking at this sword, it seems the blades point is rebated.
Could it be that this sword was rudimentally fashioned to appear the sword of a scholar, possibly in a society such as the name I have mentioned?

I will apologize for the long history 'lesson' ? which is actually my usual trait as most here already know

but it was kinda fun to learn a little on Chinese history and especially put forth some kind of a theory on this extremely fascinating sword.
I hope it will encourage other observations and suggestions!

All best regards,
Jim

josh stout · 12th January 2008, 05:58 PM

Your history is necessarily painted with broad strokes, but I think it is accurate. What is missing from history however is what was really going on outside the political centers. From the perspective of swords, we think of jian as weapons of the elite, narrow bladed dao as weapons of the military, and wide bladed choppers as weapons of the peasant militias and rebel groups. However, simple village made jian are quite common, and as I have mentioned seem to fall into two groups, the late Qing "militia jian" and the Ming style "iron jian". I am using the two different names simply to differentiate between the two groups. Iron jian with twenty-inch blades are quite common as are militia jian with 24-inch blades. I have full sized chang jian from both groups however. The jian pictured has a 24-inch blade, a bit longer than is usual. Among the early examples the rounded pommels seem to be slightly earlier than the ones with smaller more angular fittings. Another common early to mid Qing weapon is the clipped tip, straight-backed, jian shaped dao. I have been building my collection of village weapons, so I should have several examples to show shortly.

Josh

Jim McDougall · 12th January 2008, 10:21 PM

Thank you very much for the response Josh, and I'm pleased to hear that the history as I perceived it is at least overall somewhat accurate. I know that you are deeply involved in the study of Asian weapons, and have been very impressed with the detail you often bring in on Tibetan, Bhutanese and Nepalese items.
The area you are focusing on with these weapons from villages and various militias and other groups is entirely fascinating, and I look forward to seeing more examples as well as your observations on them. Too often the focus is on the standard items seen in references and in museums, and these examples reflect true ethnography in the wider scope of the culture.

Thanks again Josh!!!

All the best,
Jim

josh stout · 13th January 2008, 12:59 AM

Thanks for the kind words. This one is typical of what Scott Rodell has termed a "militia jian". It has a 24-inch blade but weighs 1K so it maneuvers like a longer but lighter jian. It is probably late 19th c., and is typical of village manufacture with a Chinese elmwood handle and a heavy iron pommel and guard. In this case the pommel is somewhat unusual in that it was coated in brass to imitate high-class jian.

Josh

http://s77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...current=00.jpg

http://s77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...rrent=01-1.jpg

11th January 2008, 03:59 PM	#1
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	Ming jian There is some disagreement about village made jian with "one piece" guards and pommels. My best understanding of the situation is that there were a large number of these weapons made for irregular groups that sprang up at the beginning and the end of the Qing. There were also similar ones made throughout the Qing thus blurring stylistic elements and making dating difficult. This is what I think is a Ming jian from the end of the dynasty. The patina is quite thick and dark, while the style is typical of Ming jian with a typical large pommel and upturned guard. Mid 17th C village made jian: http://s77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...81E5899100.jpg http://s77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...81E5899102.jpg

12th January 2008, 01:14 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	It is not often that we are able to really examine and discuss genuinely old Chinese edged weapons, and this piece is especially fascinating. With my own limited knowledge of Asian weapons, I would just like to add some observations, and naturally hope for those of others who study these weapons with more focus. The patination and age apparant here indeed suggest this sword to be of quite possibly of 17th century, and since Ming attribution is suggested, it is important to note that the northern Ming dynasty fell in 1644 to the Qing (Manchu). The southern Ming did hold out until 1662, but were then overtaken as well. Since the Ming were the last true Han Chinese to rule, the Chinese deeply resented thier suzerainty to thier foreign overlords, the Manchurian Qing, and throughout that rule (ended 1912) many variations of the ever standing Triad groups sought to overthrow the Qing and restore the Ming power. Naturally this is a simplified perspective that will likely bring forth other detail, but the point is that secret societies have existed in China from as early as 9 AD, and continue to present times. In the period of the sword we are looking at, one of the main themes of these groups was as noted, to restore true Chinese rule, the Ming. The sword itself appears to indeed be a very crudely made interpretation of the Chinese jian, and the rudimentary elements of the hilt approximate the pommel and quillon block in most stylized form. As has been suggested, this sword was probably fashioned by a village smith. The most curious thing to me is why would the style of the jian be chosen? By the end of the Ming dynasty, the jian appears to have become of minor favor as a weapon, with daos with slight curved blades more prevalent militarily (though it is suggested that Ming cavalry are seldom shown with swords). One secret society that seemed well in place by the end of the 17th century was the Hung Mun (in Cantonese), whose goals were to further religious beliefs and encourage Chinese nationalism. In order to avoid being banned apparantly they took the title Tian Diu Hui (Heaven and Earth Society) , though I am not sure how this would have protected them, in fact many thousands of these individuals were destroyed. It seems that the jian was used primarily by nobles, and remained more of a dress or court sword (though we know these are entirely deadly...I have seen breathtaking demonstrations by Scott Rodell!). If not mistaken, the jian was also a symbolic item held in great esteem by scholars. In looking at this sword, it seems the blades point is rebated. Could it be that this sword was rudimentally fashioned to appear the sword of a scholar, possibly in a society such as the name I have mentioned? I will apologize for the long history 'lesson' ? which is actually my usual trait as most here already know but it was kinda fun to learn a little on Chinese history and especially put forth some kind of a theory on this extremely fascinating sword. I hope it will encourage other observations and suggestions! All best regards, Jim

12th January 2008, 05:58 PM	#3
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	Your history is necessarily painted with broad strokes, but I think it is accurate. What is missing from history however is what was really going on outside the political centers. From the perspective of swords, we think of jian as weapons of the elite, narrow bladed dao as weapons of the military, and wide bladed choppers as weapons of the peasant militias and rebel groups. However, simple village made jian are quite common, and as I have mentioned seem to fall into two groups, the late Qing "militia jian" and the Ming style "iron jian". I am using the two different names simply to differentiate between the two groups. Iron jian with twenty-inch blades are quite common as are militia jian with 24-inch blades. I have full sized chang jian from both groups however. The jian pictured has a 24-inch blade, a bit longer than is usual. Among the early examples the rounded pommels seem to be slightly earlier than the ones with smaller more angular fittings. Another common early to mid Qing weapon is the clipped tip, straight-backed, jian shaped dao. I have been building my collection of village weapons, so I should have several examples to show shortly. Josh

12th January 2008, 10:21 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Thank you very much for the response Josh, and I'm pleased to hear that the history as I perceived it is at least overall somewhat accurate. I know that you are deeply involved in the study of Asian weapons, and have been very impressed with the detail you often bring in on Tibetan, Bhutanese and Nepalese items. The area you are focusing on with these weapons from villages and various militias and other groups is entirely fascinating, and I look forward to seeing more examples as well as your observations on them. Too often the focus is on the standard items seen in references and in museums, and these examples reflect true ethnography in the wider scope of the culture. Thanks again Josh!!! All the best, Jim

13th January 2008, 12:59 AM	#5
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	Thanks for the kind words. This one is typical of what Scott Rodell has termed a "militia jian". It has a 24-inch blade but weighs 1K so it maneuvers like a longer but lighter jian. It is probably late 19th c., and is typical of village manufacture with a Chinese elmwood handle and a heavy iron pommel and guard. In this case the pommel is somewhat unusual in that it was coated in brass to imitate high-class jian. Josh http://s77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...current=00.jpg http://s77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...rrent=01-1.jpg