some help with id of african knife

Greg · 29th June 2011, 10:23 PM

Hello,
I'm new member here. I need some help to id my african knife. I have some suggest mine, but I would like to know yours. The knife were collected probably before 1900. The lenght is 44,5cm, materials: iron, brass, wood, leather.

Tim Simmons · 30th June 2011, 09:16 AM

Very nice. The nearest referance to this form I have is Yakoma, Ngbandi NorthWest Congo. I am sure somebody will have better information. My African collection was like a high value bank note in your wallet. No desire to brake it. Then eventually it happens. Now it is rather scatterd but I still have some nice pieces.

colin henshaw · 1st July 2011, 04:48 PM

Hi

Very interesting piece, I havn't seen this type before. With the leather covered handle and those brass rings, I am going to vote for Northern Cameroons or Northern Nigeria...

Would be interested if anyone can find a reference.

Greg · 1st July 2011, 08:30 PM

Hi, thanks for reply. This knife coming from ex Guido T.Poppe collection, but it was probably not correct described as "Southern Sudan/R.C.A." (no tribe). I sent the pictures before to two friends collectors and both they said same as it's from northern Cameroon/Nigeria, but nobody knows the tribe.

Jim McDougall · 1st July 2011, 08:48 PM

Hello Greg, and welcome to the forum! Thank you for posting this, as we very much appreciate those who do post and share items for discussions as well as those who join in with observations and contribute to discussions. While African weapons are not my usual field of study, I did do some looking to add some information pending the arrival here of the experts

This most unusual bifurcated or horned pommel seems key to this piece, and I agree it is not something typically seen with African weapons. The closest thing I can find similar has this very type of pommel, and is attributed to the Bali people from the Bamenda regions of Cameroon ("African Weapons", W.Fischer & M.Zirngibl, Passau, 1978, p.36). Bamenda is now the capital of Cameroon's Northwest Province which of course indicates its location in the country.

What is most interesting is that the poignard type blade on this is more of the style seen on weapons from Zaire ("Beaute Fatale", Brussels, 1992) as is the centrilinear motif with the use of repeated triple shallow arcs in a rocker style linear. The cuff type guard on the hilt which shoulders the blade is also well known throughout Central Africa Congo regions.

On the Cameroon weapons shown from these Northwest regions they are typically swords with blades which have curious bellied shapes in the middle and squared tips, far from this type of poignard blade. This simply suggests of course the diffusion of many of these weapons with the extensive trade and intertribal contact over many years. If the knife was collected just prior to 1900 it suggests possibly this was during the German colonial activity there during the late 19th century and the British administration which took place post WWI in which Cameroon and Nigeria were largely aligned together.

Returning to the interesting pommel style, this also quite possibly may have been associated with some anthromorphic and bifurcated stylizations from Zaire (Congo) along with many of thier sword tips which use semi circular shapes in bifurcated configuration. This might also align with the shallow arcs in the central linear design.

These are the best clues I can come up with, but the leatherwork and the comparison to this type hilt certainly suggest NW Cameroon, along with most interesting influences possibly derived from Zaire.

All the best,
Jim

Tim Simmons · 1st July 2011, 08:51 PM

I found two references early today but know can only find this one. I am interested in the wire tips on the pommel? Colin makes a very good point. The fact is the the people mentioned all border the what is today Cameroon. How much cross tribal culture there has been is a possible explination for the daggers mixed form.

From " Panga Na Visy " Zirngibl/Kubetz

Greg · 2nd July 2011, 03:52 PM

Hi, thanks a lot for help and suggest. Jim it was very interesting notice.

Jim McDougall · 2nd July 2011, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg

Hi, thanks for reply. This knife coming from ex Guido T.Poppe collection, but it was probably not correct described as "Southern Sudan/R.C.A." (no tribe). I sent the pictures before to two friends collectors and both they said same as it's from northern Cameroon/Nigeria, but nobody knows the tribe.

Anything on the Bali?

Greg · 3rd July 2011, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Anything on the Bali?

I found it in Brussels.

colin henshaw · 3rd July 2011, 05:43 PM

I remembered this sword I had some years ago, and have been able to dig out this old polaroid of it. Apologies for the fuzzy image, but you can see the general similarity to the handle.

Regards.

Jim McDougall · 3rd July 2011, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

I remembered this sword I had some years ago, and have been able to dig out this old polaroid of it. Apologies for the fuzzy image, but you can see the general similarity to the handle.

Regards.

Interesting sword Colin, what is it?

Jim McDougall · 3rd July 2011, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg

I found it in Brussels.

Thanks Greg, is there something to do with Bali in Brussels?

Greg · 3rd July 2011, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thanks Greg, is there something to do with Bali in Brussels?

I'm sorry I don't understand

Iain · 3rd July 2011, 08:40 PM

Other Bali and similar regional pieces previously posted on the forums for comparison:

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7547

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=183

Personally I think Greg's piece is undoubtedly from the same area. The natural defensive geography of the Nigeria/Cameroon border area led to many diverse peoples coming into close contact in a relatively small area, often fleeing the Islamic kingdoms of the Sahel.

colin henshaw · 3rd July 2011, 09:16 PM

I was never 100% sure where it was from, most likely Northern Nigeria/Northern Cameroon/Lake Chad area...

That shape of blade with the narrowing near the tip, reminded me of some Takouba type swords also to be found in those areas. But the blade was as I remember quite heavy, with a thickish cross-section, of native made iron, not a trade blade. The tips to the handle were bound with brass wire, like Greg's example. Handle and sheath leather covered.

Regards.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Interesting sword Colin, what is it?

Tim Simmons · 3rd July 2011, 09:30 PM

The blade on Gregs piece could almost be Zande? CAR?

Jim McDougall · 4th July 2011, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg

I'm sorry I don't understand

Sorry for being so laconic...in your post #9 you responded to my question regarding information on the Bali by saying you got the weapon in Brussels and I could not see the connection. While laconic responses are popular around here I'm not too good at them

sorry.

Best regards,
Jim

Greg · 4th July 2011, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Sorry for being so laconic...in your post #9 you responded to my question regarding information on the Bali by saying you got the weapon in Brussels and I could not see the connection. While laconic responses are popular around here I'm not too good at them

sorry.

Best regards,
Jim

Dear Jim, I'm sorry it's my fault, sure there is no connection... I did not understand well... I don't know why, but I did not think about Bali as on the tribe... Last my days coming so fast...
regards Greg

Jim McDougall · 5th July 2011, 04:36 AM

No problem Greg, miscommunications happen all the time so thanks for the understanding....looks like Tim's examples are pretty close match.....nice weapon you have shown here.

All the best,
Jim

29th June 2011, 10:23 PM	#1
Greg Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 12	some help with id of african knife Hello, I'm new member here. I need some help to id my african knife. I have some suggest mine, but I would like to know yours. The knife were collected probably before 1900. The lenght is 44,5cm, materials: iron, brass, wood, leather. Attached Images

1st July 2011, 08:51 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	I found two references early today but know can only find this one. I am interested in the wire tips on the pommel? Colin makes a very good point. The fact is the the people mentioned all border the what is today Cameroon. How much cross tribal culture there has been is a possible explination for the daggers mixed form. From " Panga Na Visy " Zirngibl/Kubetz Attached Images

3rd July 2011, 05:43 PM	#10
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	I remembered this sword I had some years ago, and have been able to dig out this old polaroid of it. Apologies for the fuzzy image, but you can see the general similarity to the handle. Regards. Attached Images

30th June 2011, 09:16 AM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Very nice. The nearest referance to this form I have is Yakoma, Ngbandi NorthWest Congo. I am sure somebody will have better information. My African collection was like a high value bank note in your wallet. No desire to brake it. Then eventually it happens. Now it is rather scatterd but I still have some nice pieces.

1st July 2011, 04:48 PM	#3
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Hi Very interesting piece, I havn't seen this type before. With the leather covered handle and those brass rings, I am going to vote for Northern Cameroons or Northern Nigeria... Would be interested if anyone can find a reference.

1st July 2011, 08:30 PM	#4
Greg Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 12	Hi, thanks for reply. This knife coming from ex Guido T.Poppe collection, but it was probably not correct described as "Southern Sudan/R.C.A." (no tribe). I sent the pictures before to two friends collectors and both they said same as it's from northern Cameroon/Nigeria, but nobody knows the tribe.

1st July 2011, 08:48 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Hello Greg, and welcome to the forum! Thank you for posting this, as we very much appreciate those who do post and share items for discussions as well as those who join in with observations and contribute to discussions. While African weapons are not my usual field of study, I did do some looking to add some information pending the arrival here of the experts This most unusual bifurcated or horned pommel seems key to this piece, and I agree it is not something typically seen with African weapons. The closest thing I can find similar has this very type of pommel, and is attributed to the Bali people from the Bamenda regions of Cameroon ("African Weapons", W.Fischer & M.Zirngibl, Passau, 1978, p.36). Bamenda is now the capital of Cameroon's Northwest Province which of course indicates its location in the country. What is most interesting is that the poignard type blade on this is more of the style seen on weapons from Zaire ("Beaute Fatale", Brussels, 1992) as is the centrilinear motif with the use of repeated triple shallow arcs in a rocker style linear. The cuff type guard on the hilt which shoulders the blade is also well known throughout Central Africa Congo regions. On the Cameroon weapons shown from these Northwest regions they are typically swords with blades which have curious bellied shapes in the middle and squared tips, far from this type of poignard blade. This simply suggests of course the diffusion of many of these weapons with the extensive trade and intertribal contact over many years. If the knife was collected just prior to 1900 it suggests possibly this was during the German colonial activity there during the late 19th century and the British administration which took place post WWI in which Cameroon and Nigeria were largely aligned together. Returning to the interesting pommel style, this also quite possibly may have been associated with some anthromorphic and bifurcated stylizations from Zaire (Congo) along with many of thier sword tips which use semi circular shapes in bifurcated configuration. This might also align with the shallow arcs in the central linear design. These are the best clues I can come up with, but the leatherwork and the comparison to this type hilt certainly suggest NW Cameroon, along with most interesting influences possibly derived from Zaire. All the best, Jim

2nd July 2011, 03:52 PM	#7
Greg Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 12	Hi, thanks a lot for help and suggest. Jim it was very interesting notice.

3rd July 2011, 08:40 PM	#14
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Other Bali and similar regional pieces previously posted on the forums for comparison: http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7547 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=183 Personally I think Greg's piece is undoubtedly from the same area. The natural defensive geography of the Nigeria/Cameroon border area led to many diverse peoples coming into close contact in a relatively small area, often fleeing the Islamic kingdoms of the Sahel.

3rd July 2011, 09:30 PM	#16
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	The blade on Gregs piece could almost be Zande? CAR?

5th July 2011, 04:36 AM	#19
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	No problem Greg, miscommunications happen all the time so thanks for the understanding....looks like Tim's examples are pretty close match.....nice weapon you have shown here. All the best, Jim