Shamshir hilts

dakary · 13th March 2022, 11:31 PM

Hi everybody,

I am wondering about shamshirs in the mid-15th century to mid-16th century. I'm wondering how different they are from more modern shamshirs. I have three questions.

1) Were the blades different significantly or have they had stasis? I have heard that they used to have a significantly less aggressive curve.

2) Did hilts change much? I know that there is a huge variety of hilts - Persian, Turkish, Syrian, Indian, etc*. but was there much change within these?

*I'm assuming that the shamshir actually existed in all these places in the mid-15th century to mid-16th century...I'm not actually sure that's right though.

Basically, is there a way to date a shamshir just by looking at the design of it (in the way you can figure out, roughly, where it is from based on the design)?

3) Is there a good resource of artwork/examples of shamshirs from the mid-15th century to mid-16th century?

Thank you!

Dan

ariel · 14th March 2022, 03:10 PM

Shamshirs are ,-all of them,- just sabers. Multiple countries and tribes had them, and the differences between them are primarily in the handles.
The main problem is that they were not regulated: each bladesmith , each workshop etc. had their own peculiar features and there always was a tremendous heterogeneity in the final products.
We can have only a few general rules on their dating and provenance, and even those are imperfect.

Generally, the curvature of the Persian blades increased with time, but I do not think we can date then reliably just by their curvature. Regretfully, we are relying on the dates in the cartouches and just pray the bladesmith put the correct one.

If they were forged out of wootz, we can guess: early ones usually had pretty simple and modest pattern, but those from 18-early 19 centuries might have had very complex patterns. Again, Ottoman ones usually had the simplest pattern no matter of their age, and the same is true about real Persian ones.

You are asking a terribly complex question, and I have only approximations. Sorry. Perhaps, somebody else here will be more definitive.

dakary · 15th March 2022, 06:08 PM

Thanks for that Ariel.

If I understand you, even though there is a huge variety in shamshir hilts (across many different groups), there is relative stasis within that variety? Because, as you say, this is complex, let me simplify with an example: would it be, just going on the hilt design, impossible to tell the difference, for example, between a 15th century Turkish hilt and a 19th century hilt?

If that's the case, I find that absolutely fascinating. If you look, for a contrasting example, at a 15th century German longsword, not only do you not find the same construction in the 19th century, but you don't even find longswords!

Perhaps this stasis shows an excellent and versatile design or at least not much change in the martial context shamshirs existed in. Certainly, in evolutionary terms, when you find stasis in the fossil record for a long time, this indicates that the creature was adaptable and versatile or that their environment also saw stasis (otherwise it would go extinct!). I think we might say the same thing about swords (they better be up for the task or they will disappear - this was certainly the case with German swords - the environment changed and so did the swords).

You'd think, however, that even if the martial context didn't drive change, fashion would driven have. Yet there is stasis. Maybe this is accounted for by a deep reverence for tradition?

I hope I'm not misunderstanding (if I am, please let me know!).

ariel · 16th March 2022, 04:38 AM

Sorry, double

dakary · 16th March 2022, 11:37 PM

So I think I have a more narrow focus now after doing a bit of research. What I am looking for now is 15th century Mamluk hilts. Any leads on those would be much appreciated.

One other question that is popping up for me is that it looks like Mamluks also used the kilij (which I thought was a later Turkish invention). Regardless, throughout history, the hilts seem to be interchangeable. Is that right? Are there distinctly kilij vs. scimitar hilts?

ariel · 17th March 2022, 10:28 AM

If you are interested in Mamluk swords, get yoursels a book:

Unsal Yucel “Islamic swords and sworsmiths”

You will be greatly surprised:-)
You can find it on bookfinder.com
Very pricey….

dakary · 17th March 2022, 05:04 PM

I just looked for that book at a few places, including ABE books, and...yikes. It does look fantasic though.

I'm looking into getting a sword made and that book would cost almost as much as the sword. I've gotten in contact with Hamit over at Peserey Handicrafts (which has been recommended to me a couple times) and after some back and forth about what I am looking for, I think that a hilt like this one appeals to me (it was actually suggested by Hamit after I sent him one from the royal armouries):

It seems to have a few features that come up when looking at Mamluk hilts from that later era of the 15th-16th century. The one thing that is kind of causing me to pause is that I'm not really finding any blades on these sort of hilts that are classic Persian shamshir style curved blades. I'm more seeing slightly curved kilij style blades. So am wondering if slapping that hilt, with a curved shamshir blade is the dream of a madman because it isn't historically plausible...though I have seen some curvy blades (maybe not super curvy though) that come to a finer point in period art...I'm wondering if I need to re-think the project to include a kilij style blade instead. Or, maybe something with a gentler curve (something like you'd see on a Karabela).

This was a weird revelation to come to, if right. Because when you think of a "Mamluk" sword in the modern context, you think of something like a European interpretation of a Persian shamshir...

ariel · 18th March 2022, 04:35 AM

Well, if you want to spend your money on a modern pseudo-copy, fee free.
But IMHO, it will be just a pseudo-copy, not the real thing. First, you may want to educate yourself about real Mamluk swords. Just as a hint, they predated Ottoman swords and the Europe copied them and not vice versa.
For $75 you can buy on Amazon or on e-bay a superb book by Kirill Rivkin and Brian Isaac “ A study of the Eastern sword ”. You will find tons of data on Mamluk swords there, although nothing beats Ucel’s book in terms of actual examples.
That’s if you are serious about collecting and owning real history and not modern copies. If your goal is just to cut thin tree branches, a copy will suffice.

dakary · 18th March 2022, 05:49 PM

That's not at all what I want. I want a modern replica that is as historically accurate as possible (I know that this forum has a lot of antique collectors, which is deeply interesting, but that's not what I am looking for either). This is of paramount importance to me. I've found it easier to accomplish this with European arms. I've bought pieces from, for example, Albion, and Tod Cutler (and ordered from Tod's workshop too).

I'm having a hell of a time trying to find the equivalent for eastern medieval arms. I tend to wallow in about 1450-1520AD when it comes to European stuff (and, in particular, German) and I'd like a contemporary from the Mamluk Sultanate or, perhaps, the wider Abbasid Caliphate. I've had Peserey Handicrafts recommended to me (there is a language barrier here too). But one thing about, for example, Tod's workshop is that he knows the 15th century German stuff so well and he can offer advice based on what I want and I trust him to deliver on craftsmanship and detail to historical accuracy.

I'm also starting this from a position of relative ignorance (not that I am an expert on the German stuff - I certainly am not, but I have a greater basis of information as a starting point). I've got a shortlist of some books and I will try to add those you've recommended to me, ariel. Still, I'd also like to absorb as much information from forum members as I can, if they're willing to help me. Thank you!

ariel · 18th March 2022, 08:01 PM

Sorry if I gave an impression to judge your collecting criteria; that was not my intention. There are as many collections as there are collectors. We all have different goals and criteria and they are legitimate personal choices.
I too would be interested what the other Forumites say.

dakary · 18th March 2022, 10:12 PM

Thanks Ariel. You did not give that impression at all! I just figured that there is no sense in being cryptic. If I am detailed about what I am looking for, I'm hoping that I will get better (as in pertinent) responses.

I'm wondering if for eastern arms replicas I need to be less picky and instead of trying to get Hamit to customize something, just get one of his normal offerings, which I am sure are well researched and accurate, and not worry if it is in my favored time period. He has an "early hilt" version of his kilij which is nice, for example. I also like his standard shamshir on its own merits. I'd just really highly prefer something 15th-16th century and within the Abbasid Caliphate/Mamluk Sultanate...

Yes, it would be nice to hear from others but I get the impression I am a few years too late...it seems like all arms and armour forums used to be more lively than they are now.

Nihl · 23rd March 2022, 08:55 PM

Hi dakary! Hate to be the bearer of bad news here, but unfortunately the truth is the "eastern world" really hasn't caught up with the west in terms of available-to-order-online sword production. The fact of the matter is modern sword "pop culture" if you will is way too eurocentric at the moment, so there frankly isn't much demand from most online peoples for "eastern" swords. This, of course, mostly just applies to western, middle eastern, and south asian swords though; it goes without saying there's been east asian sword representation on the market for decades. Even southeast asia has quite a bit of representation nowadays.

This is all to say that you are correct in your perception that you'd need to custom order a sword in order to get a faithful replica. There simply are no "albion's" or "tod culter's" for the islamic world, ready to make 100% historically accurate, battle ready replicas for willing customers - with customization options available! If anything you'd be better off learning smithing yourself and making your own replicas (that's honestly what I'm planning on doing once I'm out of university). I apologize if that all sounds overly snarky, but it really is the truth. There is peserey handicrafts, like you mentioned, and also another swordsmith from Turkey that goes by "kilic_osman_baskurt" on instagram, who is very well known for making high quality replicas, often out of wootz steel. Beyond them, however, I really don't know who I'd go to.

A.alnakkas · 24th March 2022, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nihl

Hi dakary! Hate to be the bearer of bad news here, but unfortunately the truth is the "eastern world" really hasn't caught up with the west in terms of available-to-order-online sword production. The fact of the matter is modern sword "pop culture" if you will is way too eurocentric at the moment, so there frankly isn't much demand from most online peoples for "eastern" swords. This, of course, mostly just applies to western, middle eastern, and south asian swords though; it goes without saying there's been east asian sword representation on the market for decades. Even southeast asia has quite a bit of representation nowadays.

This is all to say that you are correct in your perception that you'd need to custom order a sword in order to get a faithful replica. There simply are no "albion's" or "tod culter's" for the islamic world, ready to make 100% historically accurate, battle ready replicas for willing customers - with customization options available! If anything you'd be better off learning smithing yourself and making your own replicas (that's honestly what I'm planning on doing once I'm out of university). I apologize if that all sounds overly snarky, but it really is the truth. There is peserey handicrafts, like you mentioned, and also another swordsmith from Turkey that goes by "kilic_osman_baskurt" on instagram, who is very well known for making high quality replicas, often out of wootz steel. Beyond them, however, I really don't know who I'd go to.

Osman is a very skilled smith and I totally recommend working with him. He also sticks to accurate period designs and dimensions. I’ve handled and owned multiple pieces of his productions and he is quite competent.

As for the rest of the post. The sword culture is certainly alive and well within certain regions of the east. There are even ready to order items but what fits with the taste of “easterners” who in general have a form of celebratory angle to the ownership of swords and daggers. There are modern made swords in Oman that mimic the early Yamani sword. It is very much a classical design similar to what medieval Muslims used. Sadly, like European markets said swords are antiqued and sold to buyers as authentic items.

Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Oman, Yemen, Syria and more recently the UAE al produce modern items of with old specifications based on the demand of 99.999999% of their customers. Some of their productions are of very high quality.

I’ve commissioned various swords in Doha, mainly in the more recent Arab design. They are quite accurate in shape and construction. A fellow in Doha replicated a Persian sword and it was quite well made too. I guess if one wants to know what “easterners” make, they should make the effort to find them.

dakary · 24th March 2022, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nihl

I apologize if that all sounds overly snarky, but it really is the truth.

Not at all. You've confirmed what I suspected. I seems like peserey handicrafts might be the way to go. I'll also check out Osman and think about it.

A.alnakkas' post is really intriguing to me. Especially the part about commissioning swords in Doha. That's where I used to live (and might again someday, but it doesn't look like it at the moment). I agree about the swords for celebration. They are everywhere and not at all what I am looking for. Do you have a lead for me? I I would be so grateful. When I was in Doha I tried to find some leads and only one looked promising but it never worked out - mainly because I couldn't ever find opening hours (and I went a few different times at different times/days to see). It was a place just south in Al Wakrah.

A.alnakkas · 27th March 2022, 11:05 AM

Many of them use social media. Instagram has multiple accounts. Check:

@Sword_Ghaith

@Sword_qatar

@albidaa

Farres Ahmed Bader I believe still takes projects. So do various other makers in Bahrain such as Shakir alSayigh will be able to help out. Make the design, provide the blade if you want, they can make anything.

They can even provide blades, including high quality antiques. They wont be cheap.

13th March 2022, 11:31 PM	#1
dakary Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Canada Posts: 26	Shamshir hilts Hi everybody, I am wondering about shamshirs in the mid-15th century to mid-16th century. I'm wondering how different they are from more modern shamshirs. I have three questions. 1) Were the blades different significantly or have they had stasis? I have heard that they used to have a significantly less aggressive curve. 2) Did hilts change much? I know that there is a huge variety of hilts - Persian, Turkish, Syrian, Indian, etc. but was there much change within these? I'm assuming that the shamshir actually existed in all these places in the mid-15th century to mid-16th century...I'm not actually sure that's right though. Basically, is there a way to date a shamshir just by looking at the design of it (in the way you can figure out, roughly, where it is from based on the design)? 3) Is there a good resource of artwork/examples of shamshirs from the mid-15th century to mid-16th century? Thank you! Dan

16th March 2022, 04:38 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Sorry, double Last edited by ariel; 16th March 2022 at 05:02 AM.

18th March 2022, 04:35 AM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Well, if you want to spend your money on a modern pseudo-copy, fee free. But IMHO, it will be just a pseudo-copy, not the real thing. First, you may want to educate yourself about real Mamluk swords. Just as a hint, they predated Ottoman swords and the Europe copied them and not vice versa. For $75 you can buy on Amazon or on e-bay a superb book by Kirill Rivkin and Brian Isaac “ A study of the Eastern sword ”. You will find tons of data on Mamluk swords there, although nothing beats Ucel’s book in terms of actual examples. That’s if you are serious about collecting and owning real history and not modern copies. If your goal is just to cut thin tree branches, a copy will suffice. Last edited by ariel; 18th March 2022 at 04:37 AM. Reason: Typos

14th March 2022, 03:10 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Shamshirs are ,-all of them,- just sabers. Multiple countries and tribes had them, and the differences between them are primarily in the handles. The main problem is that they were not regulated: each bladesmith , each workshop etc. had their own peculiar features and there always was a tremendous heterogeneity in the final products. We can have only a few general rules on their dating and provenance, and even those are imperfect. Generally, the curvature of the Persian blades increased with time, but I do not think we can date then reliably just by their curvature. Regretfully, we are relying on the dates in the cartouches and just pray the bladesmith put the correct one. If they were forged out of wootz, we can guess: early ones usually had pretty simple and modest pattern, but those from 18-early 19 centuries might have had very complex patterns. Again, Ottoman ones usually had the simplest pattern no matter of their age, and the same is true about real Persian ones. You are asking a terribly complex question, and I have only approximations. Sorry. Perhaps, somebody else here will be more definitive.

15th March 2022, 06:08 PM	#3
dakary Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Canada Posts: 26	Thanks for that Ariel. If I understand you, even though there is a huge variety in shamshir hilts (across many different groups), there is relative stasis within that variety? Because, as you say, this is complex, let me simplify with an example: would it be, just going on the hilt design, impossible to tell the difference, for example, between a 15th century Turkish hilt and a 19th century hilt? If that's the case, I find that absolutely fascinating. If you look, for a contrasting example, at a 15th century German longsword, not only do you not find the same construction in the 19th century, but you don't even find longswords! Perhaps this stasis shows an excellent and versatile design or at least not much change in the martial context shamshirs existed in. Certainly, in evolutionary terms, when you find stasis in the fossil record for a long time, this indicates that the creature was adaptable and versatile or that their environment also saw stasis (otherwise it would go extinct!). I think we might say the same thing about swords (they better be up for the task or they will disappear - this was certainly the case with German swords - the environment changed and so did the swords). You'd think, however, that even if the martial context didn't drive change, fashion would driven have. Yet there is stasis. Maybe this is accounted for by a deep reverence for tradition? I hope I'm not misunderstanding (if I am, please let me know!).

16th March 2022, 11:37 PM	#5
dakary Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Canada Posts: 26	So I think I have a more narrow focus now after doing a bit of research. What I am looking for now is 15th century Mamluk hilts. Any leads on those would be much appreciated. One other question that is popping up for me is that it looks like Mamluks also used the kilij (which I thought was a later Turkish invention). Regardless, throughout history, the hilts seem to be interchangeable. Is that right? Are there distinctly kilij vs. scimitar hilts?

17th March 2022, 10:28 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	If you are interested in Mamluk swords, get yoursels a book: Unsal Yucel “Islamic swords and sworsmiths” You will be greatly surprised:-) You can find it on bookfinder.com Very pricey….

17th March 2022, 05:04 PM	#7
dakary Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Canada Posts: 26	I just looked for that book at a few places, including ABE books, and...yikes. It does look fantasic though. I'm looking into getting a sword made and that book would cost almost as much as the sword. I've gotten in contact with Hamit over at Peserey Handicrafts (which has been recommended to me a couple times) and after some back and forth about what I am looking for, I think that a hilt like this one appeals to me (it was actually suggested by Hamit after I sent him one from the royal armouries): It seems to have a few features that come up when looking at Mamluk hilts from that later era of the 15th-16th century. The one thing that is kind of causing me to pause is that I'm not really finding any blades on these sort of hilts that are classic Persian shamshir style curved blades. I'm more seeing slightly curved kilij style blades. So am wondering if slapping that hilt, with a curved shamshir blade is the dream of a madman because it isn't historically plausible...though I have seen some curvy blades (maybe not super curvy though) that come to a finer point in period art...I'm wondering if I need to re-think the project to include a kilij style blade instead. Or, maybe something with a gentler curve (something like you'd see on a Karabela). This was a weird revelation to come to, if right. Because when you think of a "Mamluk" sword in the modern context, you think of something like a European interpretation of a Persian shamshir...

18th March 2022, 05:49 PM	#9
dakary Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Canada Posts: 26	That's not at all what I want. I want a modern replica that is as historically accurate as possible (I know that this forum has a lot of antique collectors, which is deeply interesting, but that's not what I am looking for either). This is of paramount importance to me. I've found it easier to accomplish this with European arms. I've bought pieces from, for example, Albion, and Tod Cutler (and ordered from Tod's workshop too). I'm having a hell of a time trying to find the equivalent for eastern medieval arms. I tend to wallow in about 1450-1520AD when it comes to European stuff (and, in particular, German) and I'd like a contemporary from the Mamluk Sultanate or, perhaps, the wider Abbasid Caliphate. I've had Peserey Handicrafts recommended to me (there is a language barrier here too). But one thing about, for example, Tod's workshop is that he knows the 15th century German stuff so well and he can offer advice based on what I want and I trust him to deliver on craftsmanship and detail to historical accuracy. I'm also starting this from a position of relative ignorance (not that I am an expert on the German stuff - I certainly am not, but I have a greater basis of information as a starting point). I've got a shortlist of some books and I will try to add those you've recommended to me, ariel. Still, I'd also like to absorb as much information from forum members as I can, if they're willing to help me. Thank you!

18th March 2022, 08:01 PM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Sorry if I gave an impression to judge your collecting criteria; that was not my intention. There are as many collections as there are collectors. We all have different goals and criteria and they are legitimate personal choices. I too would be interested what the other Forumites say.

18th March 2022, 10:12 PM	#11
dakary Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Canada Posts: 26	Thanks Ariel. You did not give that impression at all! I just figured that there is no sense in being cryptic. If I am detailed about what I am looking for, I'm hoping that I will get better (as in pertinent) responses. I'm wondering if for eastern arms replicas I need to be less picky and instead of trying to get Hamit to customize something, just get one of his normal offerings, which I am sure are well researched and accurate, and not worry if it is in my favored time period. He has an "early hilt" version of his kilij which is nice, for example. I also like his standard shamshir on its own merits. I'd just really highly prefer something 15th-16th century and within the Abbasid Caliphate/Mamluk Sultanate... Yes, it would be nice to hear from others but I get the impression I am a few years too late...it seems like all arms and armour forums used to be more lively than they are now.

23rd March 2022, 08:55 PM	#12
Nihl Member Join Date: Feb 2018 Posts: 90	Hi dakary! Hate to be the bearer of bad news here, but unfortunately the truth is the "eastern world" really hasn't caught up with the west in terms of available-to-order-online sword production. The fact of the matter is modern sword "pop culture" if you will is way too eurocentric at the moment, so there frankly isn't much demand from most online peoples for "eastern" swords. This, of course, mostly just applies to western, middle eastern, and south asian swords though; it goes without saying there's been east asian sword representation on the market for decades. Even southeast asia has quite a bit of representation nowadays. This is all to say that you are correct in your perception that you'd need to custom order a sword in order to get a faithful replica. There simply are no "albion's" or "tod culter's" for the islamic world, ready to make 100% historically accurate, battle ready replicas for willing customers - with customization options available! If anything you'd be better off learning smithing yourself and making your own replicas (that's honestly what I'm planning on doing once I'm out of university). I apologize if that all sounds overly snarky, but it really is the truth. There is peserey handicrafts, like you mentioned, and also another swordsmith from Turkey that goes by "kilic_osman_baskurt" on instagram, who is very well known for making high quality replicas, often out of wootz steel. Beyond them, however, I really don't know who I'd go to.

27th March 2022, 11:05 AM	#15
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Many of them use social media. Instagram has multiple accounts. Check: @Sword_Ghaith @Sword_qatar @albidaa Farres Ahmed Bader I believe still takes projects. So do various other makers in Bahrain such as Shakir alSayigh will be able to help out. Make the design, provide the blade if you want, they can make anything. They can even provide blades, including high quality antiques. They wont be cheap.