Unidentified pistol

corrado26 · 13th January 2019, 01:39 PM

In my collection there is a pistol that shows the VOC mark of the Dutch Vereenigte Company on its barrel. Obviously the pistol used to have a belthook that is missing but its fixing device is still there. Has anybody here seen such a pistol or at least such a device? Inside the lockplate is a mark "P" (perhaps PISTOR at Schmalkalden)
Total length is 405 mm, barrel length is 234 mm.
corrado26

fernando · 13th January 2019, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

...Has anybody here seen such a pistol or at least such a device? ...

Udo, i have never seen such pistol but, although it looks like a "normal" one, the fixation device, on the other hand, is both unusual and rather elaborate. Pity the hook is gone but, i realize that often the owners did not use such resource and simply discarded them, as they only caused embarassment; hence rather hard to recuperate them.
And by the way, does this pistol have a French touch; powder pan, butt cap, 'embouchoir' and all ?

kai · 14th January 2019, 12:21 AM

Hello Udo,

I'm not convinced, that this really is a VOC mark. I've never seen any with the O and C overlapping, much less so heavily... Also there appear to be arrows (which don't seem to vibe with the VOC-V, too).

Any other marks that might fit?

Regards,
Kai

kahnjar1 · 14th January 2019, 02:22 AM

Hi Corrado,
Nice pistol but are you sure it once had a belt hook? Normally belt hooks had 2 screws holding them in place. Also if it was hooked onto a belt, the rammer would likely fall out, as it does not look to be a captive rammer.
Stu

corrado26 · 14th January 2019, 09:03 AM

What else than a belthook should this device be for? I made a drawing how this hook fits in the recess so that it cannot move when the screw is tightly screwed. Your objection because of the rammrod is ok, but as I think that this pistol is made arround 1770/75, there are more examples without a swivel rammer as for instance the French navy pistols 1779 and 1786. The swivel rammers came up not before ca. 1790. And there are hundreds of examples of pistols with belthooks that have just one screw to fix the hook!
corrado26

fernando · 14th January 2019, 02:50 PM

Udo is right. The parallel recess would lodge whatever system in a way that it could not swing.
And the fact that, if this pistol was hanging down a belt or a bandolier by means of a hook or a ring, would cause the ramrod to easily fall off, well, such would fall off in any case, as the pistol would never be kept by whatever method with its barrel upright. The remedy for this contingency was to build the rod thick enough to get firmly stuck into the stock pipe.
I know of systems where the ramrod had a protuberance that would be caught by a little steel dent in the stock.
And back to this pistol model, allow me to be stuck up with the French influence idea. Here is a confrontation between Udo's example and the French Cavalry an IX (Full details HERE).
... Don't tell me there are no several similarities. Probably this is about a civilian version or a contract, including variations like the hanging device ?

.

corrado26 · 14th January 2019, 05:33 PM

I found nearly the same pistol in the collection of Dutch pistols of Robert E. Brooker in the U.S.
The only thing that is missing is the belt hook device. It also shows what he describes as intertwined Cs what I think is the VOC mark. The barrel ring and the style of the butt is absolutely the same.
By the way, this type of pistol has nothing to do with the French M an 9 - the differences are too numerous.
Brookers dating of this pistol with 1815 is much too late
corrado26

kai · 14th January 2019, 06:38 PM

Hello Udo,

Quote:

It also shows what he describes as intertwined Cs what I think is the VOC mark.

Even considering that genuine VOC marks do show quite a bit of variation, this most likely isn't one: While any mark might arguably be tough to struck neatly on a round barrel, the left letter's lower "arm" clearly stops rather than fading out; thus, this can be an "inverted" C but not an O which would be needed on the left (of the V)...

Also the additional vestigial smaller "features" just don't line up with any VOC mark I've come across.

For the time being, I'd go with Brooker's "intertwined Cs" hypothesis. Any close-up of his example?

Regards,
Kai

13th January 2019, 01:39 PM	#1
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,205	Unidentified pistol In my collection there is a pistol that shows the VOC mark of the Dutch Vereenigte Company on its barrel. Obviously the pistol used to have a belthook that is missing but its fixing device is still there. Has anybody here seen such a pistol or at least such a device? Inside the lockplate is a mark "P" (perhaps PISTOR at Schmalkalden) Total length is 405 mm, barrel length is 234 mm. corrado26 Attached Images

14th January 2019, 09:03 AM	#5
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,205	What else than a belthook should this device be for? I made a drawing how this hook fits in the recess so that it cannot move when the screw is tightly screwed. Your objection because of the rammrod is ok, but as I think that this pistol is made arround 1770/75, there are more examples without a swivel rammer as for instance the French navy pistols 1779 and 1786. The swivel rammers came up not before ca. 1790. And there are hundreds of examples of pistols with belthooks that have just one screw to fix the hook! corrado26 Attached Images

14th January 2019, 02:50 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Udo is right. The parallel recess would lodge whatever system in a way that it could not swing. And the fact that, if this pistol was hanging down a belt or a bandolier by means of a hook or a ring, would cause the ramrod to easily fall off, well, such would fall off in any case, as the pistol would never be kept by whatever method with its barrel upright. The remedy for this contingency was to build the rod thick enough to get firmly stuck into the stock pipe. I know of systems where the ramrod had a protuberance that would be caught by a little steel dent in the stock. And back to this pistol model, allow me to be stuck up with the French influence idea. Here is a confrontation between Udo's example and the French Cavalry an IX (Full details HERE). ... Don't tell me there are no several similarities. Probably this is about a civilian version or a contract, including variations like the hanging device ? . Attached Images

14th January 2019, 05:33 PM	#7
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,205	I found nearly the same pistol in the collection of Dutch pistols of Robert E. Brooker in the U.S. The only thing that is missing is the belt hook device. It also shows what he describes as intertwined Cs what I think is the VOC mark. The barrel ring and the style of the butt is absolutely the same. By the way, this type of pistol has nothing to do with the French M an 9 - the differences are too numerous. Brookers dating of this pistol with 1815 is much too late corrado26 Attached Images

14th January 2019, 12:21 AM	#3
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Udo, I'm not convinced, that this really is a VOC mark. I've never seen any with the O and C overlapping, much less so heavily... Also there appear to be arrows (which don't seem to vibe with the VOC-V, too). Any other marks that might fit? Regards, Kai

14th January 2019, 02:22 AM	#4
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,741	Hi Corrado, Nice pistol but are you sure it once had a belt hook? Normally belt hooks had 2 screws holding them in place. Also if it was hooked onto a belt, the rammer would likely fall out, as it does not look to be a captive rammer. Stu