Persian,Indian Dagger ????

Norman McCormick · 18th April 2008, 03:27 PM

Hi,
Got this recently and am not sure as to exactly what it is, certainly not recent I think. I doubt that it was intended for any serious knifeplay, I don't think blade is thick enough, more for adornment that anything else maybe even old tourist? maybe for a child. A 7 inch blade with what looks like the remains of some gilding, grip is a tad over 3 1/2 inches, hence the thinking made for a child. There are also traces of gilding on the grip and scabbard. As usual all thoughts and comments sought.
Regards,
Norman.

ALEX · 18th April 2008, 08:52 PM

Nice Persian Jambiya. The blade and fittings are etched with acid in a typical "Late Qajar" style. This is NOT new and NOT a typical tourist item. It is of 19th Century. As for size - yes, it is smaller than usual, but bigger than "child knife". Overall - nice small jambiya.

Norman McCormick · 18th April 2008, 09:21 PM

Alex, thanks for your interest. On closer inspection I have noticed that when sheathed the grip is slightly offset from the scabbard and that one side of the scabbard and grip are more worn than the other, good pointers I think to the dagger having been regularly worn.
Regards,
Norman.

ALEX · 19th April 2008, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

... good pointers I think to the dagger having been regularly worn.

Norman, You're absolutely right. As ornate as it is, these jambiyas were still used and worn as part of the dress. Besides, the concept of "tourist item" developed later in the history, and even most ornate knives and swords were designed to be presented "live", if not to fight with, but to display in parades, events, etc...

CharlesS · 20th April 2008, 01:11 AM

I think Alex is right on the money!

Jim McDougall · 20th April 2008, 04:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Norman, You're absolutely right. As ornate as it is, these jambiyas were still used and worn as part of the dress. Besides, the concept of "tourist item" developed later in the history, and even most ornate knives and swords were designed to be presented "live", if not to fight with, but to display in parades, events, etc...

I very much agree! It seems one of the most overplayed terms in observing ethnographic weapons is that of the 'tourist item', which seems to have evolved later as Alex notes, to provide souveniers to growing numbers of tourists visiting colonial regions.
In actuality, many traditional weapons are worn even in present times primarily as elements of costume, and though often not meeting the high standards of earlier combat ready weapons, they still carry the image as proud accoutrements.
Nice pieces like this reflect such instances, and have little to do with flimsy commercial items for sale to tourists.

Best regards,
Jim

Norman McCormick · 20th April 2008, 11:49 PM

Hi Guys,
Many thanks for your interest and replies, as you can see there is quite a bit of blackened rust on the grip and scabbard, should I attempt to clean some of this off and if so any suggestions as to a suitable method which would preserve the integrity of the piece or should I leave well alone and accept it as part of the aging process. I suspect there may be a divergence of opinion on this as this predicament surely faces us all at some point in time with various bits and pieces in our collections i.e. to clean or not to clean and when does a tidy up become a restoration?
Regards,
Norman.

ALEX · 22nd April 2008, 08:50 PM

Norman, when I have an item with similar blackened spots, and especially when I can see some traces of coftgari, I apply a heavy coat of regular oil (like engine oil or WD40) all over it, and keep it soaked in oil for a while. Then I use soft cotton to gently wipe off the oil (no heavy scrubbing though!). The goal is to remove oxidation and dirt deposits to reveal any coftgari which may be "hidden" under. In your case I'd do the same: just put some oil and gently wipe it off using clean parts of soft cotton until you stop seeing dirty marks on it. and this is as far as I'd go, i.e. any further scrubbing and/or cleaning attempts will only make it worse and potentially create more "damage".

Norman McCormick · 22nd April 2008, 10:53 PM

Alex, many thanks for the advice, will go cautiously and see how I get on.
Regards,
Norman.

18th April 2008, 03:27 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,598	Persian,Indian Dagger ???? Hi, Got this recently and am not sure as to exactly what it is, certainly not recent I think. I doubt that it was intended for any serious knifeplay, I don't think blade is thick enough, more for adornment that anything else maybe even old tourist? maybe for a child. A 7 inch blade with what looks like the remains of some gilding, grip is a tad over 3 1/2 inches, hence the thinking made for a child. There are also traces of gilding on the grip and scabbard. As usual all thoughts and comments sought. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

18th April 2008, 08:52 PM	#2
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Nice Persian Jambiya. The blade and fittings are etched with acid in a typical "Late Qajar" style. This is NOT new and NOT a typical tourist item. It is of 19th Century. As for size - yes, it is smaller than usual, but bigger than "child knife". Overall - nice small jambiya.

18th April 2008, 09:21 PM	#3
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,598	Alex, thanks for your interest. On closer inspection I have noticed that when sheathed the grip is slightly offset from the scabbard and that one side of the scabbard and grip are more worn than the other, good pointers I think to the dagger having been regularly worn. Regards, Norman.

20th April 2008, 01:11 AM	#5
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	I think Alex is right on the money!

20th April 2008, 11:49 PM	#7
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,598	Hi Guys, Many thanks for your interest and replies, as you can see there is quite a bit of blackened rust on the grip and scabbard, should I attempt to clean some of this off and if so any suggestions as to a suitable method which would preserve the integrity of the piece or should I leave well alone and accept it as part of the aging process. I suspect there may be a divergence of opinion on this as this predicament surely faces us all at some point in time with various bits and pieces in our collections i.e. to clean or not to clean and when does a tidy up become a restoration? Regards, Norman.

22nd April 2008, 08:50 PM	#8
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Norman, when I have an item with similar blackened spots, and especially when I can see some traces of coftgari, I apply a heavy coat of regular oil (like engine oil or WD40) all over it, and keep it soaked in oil for a while. Then I use soft cotton to gently wipe off the oil (no heavy scrubbing though!). The goal is to remove oxidation and dirt deposits to reveal any coftgari which may be "hidden" under. In your case I'd do the same: just put some oil and gently wipe it off using clean parts of soft cotton until you stop seeing dirty marks on it. and this is as far as I'd go, i.e. any further scrubbing and/or cleaning attempts will only make it worse and potentially create more "damage".

22nd April 2008, 10:53 PM	#9
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,598	Alex, many thanks for the advice, will go cautiously and see how I get on. Regards, Norman.