brief notes on a 16th century sword

cornelistromp · 20th November 2016, 03:32 PM

in 1995 Sotheby’s auctioned one of the largest collections of a German noble house, maybe the largest.
Die Sammlung der Markgrafen und Großherzöge von Baden, 7 catalogues 7400 lots in 22days.
Also this sword was among the lots ,straight out of the armoury of the karlsruhe castle, described in the catalogue as German broadsword early 17thC.
But is it also 17thC ?, if we take a closer look at this sword;
the condition is surprising, hardly wear or damage, and the remains of the fire gilding are still present at the pommel and deeper parts of the hilt.
The blade is shiny and sharp, the sword could be used at any time again.
it has a pommel in the form of a scent stopper, actually a later variation of Oakeshott pommel type T.
The grip is of one and a half hands size, wherein the rear hand covers a portion of the grip and the pommel.
the sword is swift and feels light in hand, it can be used with one hand only.
The hilt has a guard with recurved quillons across the plane of the blade.
Those recurved quillons were common in art in the first quarter of the 16th century.
the blade has no ricasso or start and has a long wide fuller over the entire length with two shorter Fullers on each side.
a geometry that occurred in the 15th and 16th century on north Italian swords but blades like this are also made in Solingen, (actually a similar lower quality version was produced till the mid of the 19th century for export to Africa and India.)
in all aspects this sword tend me more to the beginning of the 16th century then to the early 17th century.

In Art:
A similar sword is depicted in a painting by Joerg brue the Elder, made in 1501, - the crucifixion.

Best,
jasper

cornelistromp · 20th November 2016, 03:53 PM

some additional pics.

cornelistromp · 20th November 2016, 03:55 PM

...

corrado26 · 20th November 2016, 04:30 PM

Brief correction:
"this sword was among the lots ,straight out of the armoury of the Karlsruhe Castle" is not correct.
The whole collection and the sword came from the castle of Baden-Baden. At the time when this sword was made, the house of Baden-Baden was strictly separated from the house of Baden-Durlach (later capital Karlsruhe).
As I am living nearby I used the opportunity to be present at all 22 days of this huge auction .
corrado26

cornelistromp · 20th November 2016, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

Brief correction:
"this sword was among the lots ,straight out of the armoury of the Karlsruhe Castle" is not correct.
The whole collection and the sword came from the castle of Baden-Baden. At the time when this sword was made, the house of Baden-Baden was strictly separated from the house of Baden-Durlach (later capital Karlsruhe).
As I am living nearby I used the opportunity to be present at all 22 days of this huge auction .
corrado26

thanks, that must have been a very intersting experience, to join such an auction.
The following is indicated by Sotheby's in the catalogue nr 1 together with a Picture of the Karlsruher Castle!
The furniture and decorative objects depicted on the following pages are an integral part of the Baden and Kurpfalzian royal residential culture of 250 years.
so indeed not very clear where it comes from in great detail.
In any case, the sword is older than the above Castle, the Karlsruhe palace but may of course have been there for a period of time, who can tell.
nevertheles straight out of the armoury of the Baden-Baden Castle is fine.

Neues Schloss Baden-Baden, where the Sotheby's auction took place was the residence of christopher I from 1479 onwards.
In 1515 the margrave was divided into three parts, Christopher I handed over the country to his three sons.

with some (big) imagination the sword could have been owned by somebody near one of the three sons, perhaps near Bernhard III, regent for the left-Rhine possessions of the Markgrave from 1515-1535.
He was also founder of the house of Baden-Baden, thereby became the Separation of Baden-Durlach and Baden-Baden a fact in the year 1533.

best,
jasper

mariusgmioc · 21st November 2016, 10:43 AM

I am definitely not a specialist in the field and I am rather paranoid by nature... so for me this looks like ta typical 19century "Historismus" sword.

The mere fact that it came from an old and respected collection, doesn't make it necessarily genuine. I have seen other examles where otherwise reputed myuseums were dead wrong about the age of some of the items in their collections.

PS: See for example posting #20 in the thread below:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=chicago

cornelistromp · 21st November 2016, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

I am definitely not a specialist in the field and I am rather paranoid by nature... so for me this looks like ta typical 19century "Historismus" sword.

The mere fact that it came from an old and respected collection, doesn't make it necessarily genuine. I have seen other examles where otherwise reputed myuseums were dead wrong about the age of some of the items in their collections.

PS: See for example posting #20 in the thread below:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=chicago

no the provenance is never a guarantee, I studied and discussed the sword for some time now and have no doubt that the sword is 16th century.

furthermore I don't expect you to say something meaningful about the authenticity merely based on the small pictures alone.

nevertheless I welcome your opinion, even if you indicate that you are not a specialist and you have become a little paranoid.

best,
Jasper

corrado26 · 21st November 2016, 11:32 AM

As a then member of the staff of the Military Museum of Rastatt Castle I had been involved in writing the auction textes for the firearms offered at the Baden-Baden auction. So I had the opportunity to see that in the entrance hall of the Baden-Baden New Castle there have been many parts of armoures, mostly brestparts, helmets, swords and halberds which in my opinion all have been made in the 1870/80s. But as far as I know they all have been offered and sold as genuine pieces to mostly very high prices.
corrado26

cornelistromp · 21st November 2016, 11:50 AM

yes I did have some questions about some lots that I've seen there and have also seen real "gems"

which lot nrs do you mean, can you be more specific?

furthermore Please try to review the focus on the sword of post1.

best,
Jasper

corrado26 · 21st November 2016, 02:00 PM

Sorry, but this is impossible. I disposed the catalogues of this auction a long time ago on the occasion of my retirement and move to another place, so I'm not able to check the relevant lot numbers today.
corrado26

Cerjak · 21st November 2016, 05:20 PM

The later wire bound grip and the excellent condition of this sword may actually contribute to distrust about the age of this sword.
But in no way a pristine condition or the lack of signs of age or use could attest that this sword is from modern period because we don’t have any information about is origin and also his way of preservation. With pictures in low resolution ,we can only see the general shape of this sword and we could only debate on the different components on this sword.
So the first questions are :Pommel, blade , quillons are matching together? The style is correct for the period?
Jasper has bring us some evidence with all the representation in old paints that the style of the sword is correct for the period.
The second step is to try to detect any signs of modern production.
And last step who requiring:experience and knowledge : In hands , is it to try to determinate if this weapons could be an efficient ,if it is the case the probability to be a modern sword should be near to zero.
For the 2 last steps no one in this forum could contest to Jasperhis maturity of judgment.
It is a very nice broad sword that I would be happy to add in my collection, looks to me like an Oakeshott Type XX blade also in my eyes( it is only my tast ) the wire bound grip is likely to impair the beauty of this sword
Jasper ,how is the wood under the wire bound grip ,could you see it ?
best

Jean-Luc

Reventlov · 21st November 2016, 05:56 PM

I am likely guilty of sharing Marius' paranoia as well.... no need to repeat the misgivings.

I can offer one physical example that can support the possible dating - it shares some similar features vis-a-vis the form of the pommel and blade. I agree with Jean-Luc that comparisons should be sought among type XX swords.

Mark

cornelistromp · 21st November 2016, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reventlov

I am likely guilty of sharing Marius' paranoia as well.... no need to repeat the misgivings.

I can offer one physical example that can support the possible dating - it shares some similar features vis-a-vis the form of the pommel and blade. I agree with Jean-Luc that comparisons should be sought among type XX swords.

Mark

No problem, my first reaction to photos of this sword was skeptical but differs from my opinion now.

thanks for the good example of a similar type Oakeshott XX , I know the sword, it is at the moment in the Spiš Museum in Slovakia.
I know a few more examples of similar blades on 16th century swords.

@ Jean-Luc
thanks for the compliments.
actually it is not as pristine as you would expect, the surface of the blade is shiny but it has the structure and pitting that you would expect in a well-kept old blade with some nicks on the cutting edge at the blade node/approx.3/4 length.
the sandwich wooden grip is dark and old, the binding is probably redone in the 17thC.

best,
Jasper

ulfberth · 22nd November 2016, 08:45 AM

Hello Jasper,

Congratulations with this beautiful sword !
I have no doubt this sword is an original in all parts and indeed from the first quarter of the 16th century.
For me the pictures are clear enough to see this in the details.
I have a bit experience in the field of looking with a loupe at details and carbon content in things , it was my job for over 30 years.

Magnificent sword !

Kind regards

Ulfberth

cornelistromp · 22nd November 2016, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ulfberth

Hello Jasper,

Congratulations with this beautiful sword !
I have no doubt this sword is an original in all parts and indeed from the first quarter of the 16th century.
For me the pictures are clear enough to see this in the details.
I have a bit experience in the field of looking with a loupe at details and carbon content in things , it was my job for over 30 years.

Magnificent sword !

Kind regards

Ulfberth

Hi Dirk,

your expertise in the field of swords and opinion is greatly appreciated, I share your point of view in this.

thanks for the congratulation. However the sword is already a few years in my possession.

best,
Jasper

20th November 2016, 03:32 PM	#1
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	brief notes on a 16th century sword in 1995 Sotheby’s auctioned one of the largest collections of a German noble house, maybe the largest. Die Sammlung der Markgrafen und Großherzöge von Baden, 7 catalogues 7400 lots in 22days. Also this sword was among the lots ,straight out of the armoury of the karlsruhe castle, described in the catalogue as German broadsword early 17thC. But is it also 17thC ?, if we take a closer look at this sword; the condition is surprising, hardly wear or damage, and the remains of the fire gilding are still present at the pommel and deeper parts of the hilt. The blade is shiny and sharp, the sword could be used at any time again. it has a pommel in the form of a scent stopper, actually a later variation of Oakeshott pommel type T. The grip is of one and a half hands size, wherein the rear hand covers a portion of the grip and the pommel. the sword is swift and feels light in hand, it can be used with one hand only. The hilt has a guard with recurved quillons across the plane of the blade. Those recurved quillons were common in art in the first quarter of the 16th century. the blade has no ricasso or start and has a long wide fuller over the entire length with two shorter Fullers on each side. a geometry that occurred in the 15th and 16th century on north Italian swords but blades like this are also made in Solingen, (actually a similar lower quality version was produced till the mid of the 19th century for export to Africa and India.) in all aspects this sword tend me more to the beginning of the 16th century then to the early 17th century. In Art: A similar sword is depicted in a painting by Joerg brue the Elder, made in 1501, - the crucifixion. Best, jasper Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 20th November 2016 at 07:57 PM.

20th November 2016, 03:55 PM	#3
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	... Attached Images

21st November 2016, 10:43 AM	#6
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	I am definitely not a specialist in the field and I am rather paranoid by nature... so for me this looks like ta typical 19century "Historismus" sword. The mere fact that it came from an old and respected collection, doesn't make it necessarily genuine. I have seen other examles where otherwise reputed myuseums were dead wrong about the age of some of the items in their collections. PS: See for example posting #20 in the thread below: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=chicago Last edited by mariusgmioc; 21st November 2016 at 10:54 AM.

21st November 2016, 11:50 AM	#9
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	yes I did have some questions about some lots that I've seen there and have also seen real "gems" which lot nrs do you mean, can you be more specific? furthermore Please try to review the focus on the sword of post1. best, Jasper Last edited by cornelistromp; 21st November 2016 at 12:10 PM.

21st November 2016, 05:56 PM	#12
Reventlov Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 132	I am likely guilty of sharing Marius' paranoia as well.... no need to repeat the misgivings. I can offer one physical example that can support the possible dating - it shares some similar features vis-a-vis the form of the pommel and blade. I agree with Jean-Luc that comparisons should be sought among type XX swords. Mark Attached Images Last edited by Reventlov; 21st November 2016 at 06:09 PM.

20th November 2016, 03:53 PM	#2
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	some additional pics. Attached Images

20th November 2016, 04:30 PM	#4
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,204	Brief correction: "this sword was among the lots ,straight out of the armoury of the Karlsruhe Castle" is not correct. The whole collection and the sword came from the castle of Baden-Baden. At the time when this sword was made, the house of Baden-Baden was strictly separated from the house of Baden-Durlach (later capital Karlsruhe). As I am living nearby I used the opportunity to be present at all 22 days of this huge auction . corrado26

21st November 2016, 11:32 AM	#8
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,204	As a then member of the staff of the Military Museum of Rastatt Castle I had been involved in writing the auction textes for the firearms offered at the Baden-Baden auction. So I had the opportunity to see that in the entrance hall of the Baden-Baden New Castle there have been many parts of armoures, mostly brestparts, helmets, swords and halberds which in my opinion all have been made in the 1870/80s. But as far as I know they all have been offered and sold as genuine pieces to mostly very high prices. corrado26

21st November 2016, 02:00 PM	#10
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,204	Sorry, but this is impossible. I disposed the catalogues of this auction a long time ago on the occasion of my retirement and move to another place, so I'm not able to check the relevant lot numbers today. corrado26

21st November 2016, 05:20 PM	#11
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	The later wire bound grip and the excellent condition of this sword may actually contribute to distrust about the age of this sword. But in no way a pristine condition or the lack of signs of age or use could attest that this sword is from modern period because we don’t have any information about is origin and also his way of preservation. With pictures in low resolution ,we can only see the general shape of this sword and we could only debate on the different components on this sword. So the first questions are :Pommel, blade , quillons are matching together? The style is correct for the period? Jasper has bring us some evidence with all the representation in old paints that the style of the sword is correct for the period. The second step is to try to detect any signs of modern production. And last step who requiring:experience and knowledge : In hands , is it to try to determinate if this weapons could be an efficient ,if it is the case the probability to be a modern sword should be near to zero. For the 2 last steps no one in this forum could contest to Jasperhis maturity of judgment. It is a very nice broad sword that I would be happy to add in my collection, looks to me like an Oakeshott Type XX blade also in my eyes( it is only my tast ) the wire bound grip is likely to impair the beauty of this sword Jasper ,how is the wood under the wire bound grip ,could you see it ? best Jean-Luc

22nd November 2016, 08:45 AM	#14
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 400	Hello Jasper, Congratulations with this beautiful sword ! I have no doubt this sword is an original in all parts and indeed from the first quarter of the 16th century. For me the pictures are clear enough to see this in the details. I have a bit experience in the field of looking with a loupe at details and carbon content in things , it was my job for over 30 years. Magnificent sword ! Kind regards Ulfberth