Golden keris

[Marcokeris]

Here two photos of a golden keris (mataran) seen in Yogja during my last trip.
About price.... ...(if i bought it my wife properly would ask the divorce)

[BluErf]

Don't even touch this keris with a ten-foot pole. But if you still like it and want to buy it, don't pay too much for it.

[David]

Certainly not worth divorcing over.
Looks like new work to me. The kinatah doesn't look particular well done either.

[Henk]

BluErf and David are right!!

Just buy something like this when you're desperately seeking for a reason to divorce.

I think I prefer a bad marriage above loosing money to something like this

[cahaya]

Hi,....i think the kinatah is new, the motif of kinatah is lung-lungan of orchid, n the kinatah not ditail work like the older kris specially in the orchid

[A. G. Maisey]

Not the best of this type of thing that I've seen, but I wouldn't be prepared to condemn it out of hand. It could well be better in the hand than in the pic. As for price, well, all things have a value, and if the price coincides with the value, then its OK.

[David]

You are right Alan. And the image quality of these pictures are tough to read due to some bad photoshop and sizing. It may well look a bit better in hand. I don't think we are condemning this keris outright per se, but given Marco's remarks about price and divorce i think the implication is that this keris is probably being presented as something it is not. No big surprise there though, i guess.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yeah, possibly, but even if it is being presented as exactly what it is, and the rest of the dress---wrongko, pendok--- is good to top quality, it could represent a lot of money.

There's a lot of gold on that blade. Kinatah work is not cheap, and if it is good quality brand new kinatah work, you're looking big money before you go anywhere.

What are stones in the selut and mendak?

What is the material?

What is the level of craftsmanship?

What is the handle material?

Old handle?

Level of quality?

Level of condition?

New handle?

Who made it?

Who made the warangka?

What is the material?

Who made the pendok, what type of pendok?

What material?

What weight of material?

This is the way you appraise a keris. You don't just look at it as a totality and say :- "No!!!"---or alternatively "Yes!!!"

You look at each separate part, calculate the value, add these values, and sometimes add a little extra, or subtract a little extra, because of external factors. If the asking price coincides with the value, you're in business,provided you personally like it. If you don't like it, you pass. If the asking price is silly, you pass. If the asking price is close, you bargain.

Then there's the question of how much expenditure it takes to generate divorce threats. I know a bloke who divorced his wife because she put $100 through a poker machine after he told her not to.

[BluErf]

Hello Alan,

That is a very rational way of looking at kerises. A bottom-up approach, I'd say.

I start by looking at a keris in totality. The keris must look 'right' to me. That means conforming to standards of 'properness' that has been ingrained into me through what I have learnt, and through my experience from handling kerises. Further to that, I must like the keris before I look any further.

Then, I'd go into the details of each part, the workmanship, the fit with the other parts of the keris. Who made it may not be so important because famous makers can have bad works (sometimes) too.

Finally, when I decide that I like the piece, then I ask about the price. The price would probably have gone through some tacit assessment based on the "gut feel" sum value of the individual parts, but I won't go into the details of how much each part would probably cost. Also, I'd try to recall any 'benchmark' sales of similar pieces and compare the price to that. After all, the price is determined by the market.

Its a rather unstructured process, but I think it works well for me.

[BluErf]

All that glitters is not gold - how do we know if the kinatah really contains gold?

I have a picture of an old Javanese sangkelet with old, worn off kinatah on it. That really looked like gold to me, resembling the pale yellow tone of pure gold (I had a pure gold ring for reference). It is shiny for sure, but it has a 'muted' soft shine.

The new kinatah works often look 'hard', and very very yellow, very very shiny. I suppose it is some sort of alloy with gold in it?

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Then there's the question of how much expenditure it takes to generate divorce threats. I know a bloke who divorced his wife because she put $100 through a poker machine after he told her not to.

All points well taken Alan.

[A. G. Maisey]

What I have set forth is an abbreviation of the professional method of appraisal.

It is totally structured and it considers the individual market value of every component part of a complete keris. There is nothing hit and miss about it, and it is what every keris dealer in Indonesia (who wishes to remain in business) will use when he is buying , or selling, any keris.

A collector can possibly afford to take a slightly different view, because the ultimate question for every collector is not whether the price is right, but how much he likes something.

The ultimate question for any dealer is whether the price is right, not how much he likes something.

Back in the 1970's there was a dealer in Solo named Suratman. He was really a supplier of Javanese clothing and accessories, but he also dealt a lot of keris. I got into a conversation with him once about the value of a keris I was trying to buy from him, and what he said---trimmed of the window dressing---was this:-

there is a strict value for each part of a keris, but for any complete keris the value is what I can sell it for.

Any time I buy any keris I determine what I am prepared to pay for it by using the approach I outlined above. This is professionalism as opposed to the usual collector approach. It may not be possible for the average collector to be quite as analytical as a dealer will be, for the simple reason that the collector will not know the real prices of the component parts, and similarly will not be able to recognise the work of individual craftsmen, and their strong and weak points. However, the approach should still be analytical. Once you've decided if you like it or not, and whether or not you would like it in your collection , you need to look at the values of individual parts of the keris.

The difference in price between sandalwood and scented sandalwood is about 20 fold.
Silver, and silver plate about 50 fold.
Intan and yakut, about 50 fold.
Mirah (true ruby) and garnet at least 50 fold.
Tayuman, or one of the other prestige woods can multiply handle price by several hundred percent.
The craftsmen involved can provide a gaurantee of integrity. It is not just about what you can see.

With kinatah, the craftsman involved is vital.
Kinatah from Madura is relatively low cost, from Jogja, a bit more expensive, from Solo, exceptionally expensive. One would not want to pay $10,000 for a keris with Madura kinatah.

Regarding kinatah, there are several things that can look like kinatah but are not, there's brass, then there's gold plated brass, and I've seen gold paint presented as kinatah. There is an alloy called "pinchbeck" ---forget the composition---that looks like gold, and could be found sometimes. There's swasa, but that is too difficult to use for kinatah. In fact swasa is gold, but alloyed with copper down to below 14K. But kinatah is kinatah, and if its applied leaf, which is pretty easy to identify, then its true kinatah. Some gimpy work is put on with adhesive, and this can be picked up pretty easy, but the real thing is easy to ID in the hand. The various colours are because of what the gold was alloyed with, and it will always be alloyed, usually to 22K, as against 24K for pure gold. Yellowish is a silver alloy, reddish is a copper alloy. Even with 24K gold you can get different colours depending on where the gold has come from.

[BluErf]

Thank you for sharing the additional information, Alan. If it is not too much to ask, based on the pictures in this thread (I know it is always not reliable to assess a keris based on pictures alone), what type of kinatah is that?

[Marcokeris]

The two photos were made without no study, by the owner in his room using a little digital camera with flash at 1 meter (more and less) from the blade. I also did a photo using my cellular but the quality was worse.
Unfortunately flash' reflection on the gold surface doesn't show the amazing quality of work.
About stones, selut, mendak, handle and sarong I asked nothing to the seller because I had the feeling they had no influence towards blade's price
(To day I'll scanner the photo )

[Battara]

I know that in the Philippines and in many of the Indonesian islands, swaasa is 1/3 gold and 2/3 copper with a little silver mixed in. This makes the material have an orange look to it and is roughly 9k gold. Different mixtures of silver and copper give different colors and tones.

[A. G. Maisey]

G'day Kai Wee, absolutely no way known I could tell the origin of the kinatah work from even the best studio photograph. I would need to handle the keris. However, logically it is probably Madura, or maybe Surabaya (same thing) . The blade itself is not of high enough quality to spend the money involved in other than Madura work.

Marco, it depends how the price was quoted to you. If they just quoted the price of the blade, then naturally the dress had no influence on the price, but if it was a price for the entire keris, it is likely---judging from only what I can see of the selut---that the value of the dress could be equal to, or exceed the value of the blade alone.

[Marcokeris]

Here I put the photo of sarong

[A. G. Maisey]

This pic demonstrates well what I was talking about.

The wood in that wrongko is superb.

The workmanship is probably as good as the wood. Difficult to judge in only one dimension, but from what I can see, this is top quality work.

The pendok is difficult to read because of reflection, but it appears to a Solo engraved bunton in silver. Even if the quality of work is the lowest quality available, you are still looking at very heavy money.

The selut is probably silver, the stones I cannot comment on, however, if they are intan and mirah, which is likely, because of the quality of the rest of the dress, then you have moved to a new dimension.

The handle could be tayuman, but if it is not, it is more than likely that it is good quality , old.

The dress on this blade is good, and being good, is expensive.

By any measure, this would not be a low priced keris.

[Marcokeris]

About price: the keris of this thread costed money seventeen time up of the keris that i put in the bottom. I could buy it about ten years ago because there was, in Indonesia, an unannounced very bad economic crack (about 1 $ = 18.000 rp instead of 1$ = 3.000 rp).

[Boedhi Adhitya]

Ohh...No!!!... The pendok... is it suasa (9-12k gold) frame with gold-plated silver or solid gold center, Marco? Any enamel work? I love the pendok much more than the keris. Please don't take it in the wrong way. The keris is O.K and nothing wrong with it. But the pendok...really worth to die for..

[rasdan]

I like the second keris better Marco. The kinatah looks thicker and finer. (To my eyes that is) But i think its over stained. Is the mendak and central pendok panel gold? Congrats on a very nice keris!!

[David]

What you have in the second picture is diffently a better photograph which allows us to examine the quality of the kinatah much better than in the first picture. It is hard to say without viewing the entire keris, but i think i would probably prefer this second one over the first myself. Of course, this says nothing about the intrinsic value of either keris, just my personal likes and dislikes.
And yes, that pendok does look pretty cool!

[A. G. Maisey]

I would probaly prefer the blade of the second keris, to the blade of the first keris, but the dress on the first keris is far and away superior to the dress on the second keris.

Yes, the pendok on keris #2 is skillfully done, but embossing is never the equal of engraving from the point of view of sheer quality.

Actual comparative values could only be determined after close examination of the two keris concerned, but I feel that the actual value of keris #1 could come out on top of keris #2.

I will add as a rider that what I am saying here is purely my opinion. I am not contradicting anything that has already been said, merely providing my opinion, based upon my experience.

[Boedhi Adhitya]

Regarding the keris #1, well, the gold (if it really gold) certainly new and badly executed. But the blade isn't easily judged from the pictures. It could be old. A newly made keris of this quality from Madura should deserves better kinatah. If not, it only wasting the work of the pande/tukang potong. The dressing, especially the warangka, or more specifically, the wood grains, is good, if not superb. Fragrance sandalwood with Nganam kepang grains (or ndaging urang ?)

About the pendok, as Alan said, embossing is never equal of engraving in the sheer quality. Surakarta tends to prefer the engraving (or 'cukitan') while Jogjakarta prefer the embossing (tatah) technique.

On the pendok #2, Marcokeris has what it called 'tatah wudhulan' (Haryono in his book probably refers it as 'pendulan',(?)). We should have what it seems as a 'rough' surfaces, but should be very 'clear' and details. To achieve this, the craftmen use at least 3 embossing process, first from the face, then from the back and then from the face again. Thus, it is important to have a separate 'center plate' (slorok). Unfortunately, no craftmen today is able to produce the same quality as the old pendok shows. If it really made of suasa and gold, it would cost you somewhere near $1,000 (1$=Rp.10,000.), if you could find one.

[Marcokeris]

The gold work of keris n. 1 was really beautiful (one of the best i never seen) but the quality of photo is bad and does not show the work.
Yes, the pendok of keris n. 2 is suasa with gold - plated silver (openwork)
The stone of selut are cheap martapura diamonds

[cahaya]

Thanks for (goods) explanation Mas (Mr.) Boedhi,

[A. G. Maisey]

As I said, I stated an opinion, and I thank you Pak Boedhi for your opinion.

My designation of the wood in the warangka as "superb" was based on the value placed on such a piece of wood, and the number of times I have seen a comparable piece of wood in any warangka, either old or new. This is brilliant wood by any standard.

I do not understand "Martapura diamonds". Are these the same as intan, or rose cut diamonds? If so, although they may be low priced on the scale of diamond values, used in a selut, they raise the value of the selut considerably in comparison with yakut, cubics, or natural zircons.

[Marcokeris]

Thanks Alan and Boedhi for your explanations.
Alan: I call Martapura diamond diamond with impurities and not hight class (v. African diamond)