Powder flask needs help

[Kubur]

Hi Guys,

I need restoration advices.
How to clean mold over paintings, most probably on papier mache?
Without destroying the paintings, of course...
It's a Qajar powder flask.

Thanks

Kubur

[Richard G]

I would make sure it is dry and then trying brushing with a clean brush. Something like a shoe or clothes brush with natural bristle to which you can apply vigour as seems appropriate.
Regards
Richard

[BANDOOK]

VERY NICE AND GENUINE FLASK KUBUR,I WOULD KEEP IT NEAR A DEHUMIDYFER FOR A COUPLE OF DAYS TO GET THE MOISTURE OUT THEN APPLY BEES WAX ,CHEERS

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by BANDOOK

VERY NICE AND GENUINE FLASK KUBUR,I WOULD KEEP IT NEAR A DEHUMIDYFER FOR A COUPLE OF DAYS TO GET THE MOISTURE OUT THEN APPLY BEES WAX ,CHEERS

Hi Rajesh,
Thank you. The paintings are not covered by vernish and I'm afraid to destroy them if i use some wax on it...
Best Kubur

[rickystl]

Hi Kubur.

Nice looking flask. Even has it's original stopper, that are usually missing.
Well, we know the body is made of leather. I think I would try Richard's suggestion first. It looks like it is mostly old dirt/dust left to harden over the years. You might also try a mild soap, or saddle soap on a small area without the paintings, and slowly go from there.

Rick

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Kubur.

Nice looking flask. Even has it's original stopper, that are usually missing.
Well, we know the body is made of leather. I think I would try Richard's suggestion first. It looks like it is mostly old dirt/dust left to harden over the years. You might also try a mild soap, or saddle soap on a small area without the paintings, and slowly go from there.

Rick

Hi Rick,
Thanks for your ideas. Yes i will go slowly and carefuly.
Then for the body made of leather, well this one is not made of leather.
It has the classic shape of the so-called camel scrotum, but it's a different material such as plaster. It is just plastered and painted papier mache. Its very common with Qajar. Look i found on line another one with a date MAHMOUD , ISFAHAN" DATED "1318 AH , 1900 AD... You have to get one for your collection!
Best, Kubur

[rickystl]

Hi Kubur.

OH, my error. I thought it was leather like most of the others. Not sure how to go about cleaning this one. Maybe just a mild liquid soap (?) Appears to be just old dirt/dust. Let us know if you come up with something.

Rick

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

It is true that it is said that these are camel scrotum, powder flasks. Whether it is or is not believed... and they may be some other material ... I like the idea that camels have got in the frame...so as far as I am concerned this wonderful explanation carries water... or gunpowder whichever you think more appropriate... Clean with some wax ... it will bring up the colours.

[rickystl]

Hi Ibrahiim.

I've occassionally wondered wheather the medium/larger hard leather flasks were more commonly used to carry water versus gunpowder. Sort of like a Spanish leather wine bola. (?) Of course the moulded leather would work well to carry either. My thinking was also based on the rather large opening in the Persian style flasks. Seems more suited for drinking water than pouring powder.
Here are three hard leather flasks. The two larger ones have the wide opening and are just large enough to act as a small canteen to carry a reasonable amount of water. The smaller Arab style flask (associated with the camel scrotum style) with it's narrow, tapered neck seems better suited to pour gunpowder into a measure or barrel. And it's way to small to act as a canteen.

That said, many of the Ethno flasks/horns tend to have larger diameter pour spouts than their European counterparts. Especially the Moroccan horns. One theory I have for this is that an approximate amount of powder was simply pourded into the palm of the other hand, instead of a pre-formed measure, before inserting into the barrel.

Rick

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Ibrahiim.

I've occassionally wondered wheather the medium/larger hard leather flasks were more commonly used to carry water versus gunpowder. Sort of like a Spanish leather wine bola. (?) Of course the moulded leather would work well to carry either. My thinking was also based on the rather large opening in the Persian style flasks. Seems more suited for drinking water than pouring powder.
Here are three hard leather flasks. The two larger ones have the wide opening and are just large enough to act as a small canteen to carry a reasonable amount of water. The smaller Arab style flask (associated with the camel scrotum style) with it's narrow, tapered neck seems better suited to pour gunpowder into a measure or barrel. And it's way to small to act as a canteen.

That said, many of the Ethno flasks/horns tend to have larger diameter pour spouts than their European counterparts. Especially the Moroccan horns. One theory I have for this is that an approximate amount of powder was simply pourded into the palm of the other hand, instead of a pre-formed measure, before inserting into the barrel.

Rick

Hi Rick,
I seem to remember we have discussed the issue of large flask mouths and large flasks in general before. We in the "west" are used to fine/small grained black powder whilst those not blessed with a local "gunshop" tend to use very coarse grained, (maybe home made) almost blasting powder size, which thru necessity would require both a larger flask and a larger spout to facilitate easy pouring. I think you are right about "a hand full" as the Monkey Hunter featured some time ago in a Michael Palin documentary, did just that.
Stu

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

[QUOTE=rickystl]Hi Ibrahiim.

I've occassionally wondered wheather the medium/larger hard leather flasks were more commonly used to carry water versus gunpowder. Sort of like a Spanish leather wine bola. (?) Of course the moulded leather would work well to carry either. My thinking was also based on the rather large opening in the Persian style flasks. Seems more suited for drinking water than pouring powder.
Here are three hard leather flasks. The two larger ones have the wide opening and are just large enough to act as a small canteen to carry a reasonable amount of water. The smaller Arab style flask (associated with the camel scrotum style) with it's narrow, tapered neck seems better suited to pour gunpowder into a measure or barrel. And it's way to small to act as a canteen.

That said, many of the Ethno flasks/horns tend to have larger diameter pour spouts than their European counterparts. Especially the Moroccan horns. One theory I have for this is that an approximate amount of powder was simply pourded into the palm of the other hand, instead of a pre-formed measure, before inserting into the barrel.


Hello rickyst, Good point ! I have the impression that a number of solutions worked... First that two powder flasks were used the first being somewhat coarser powder for the main barrel charge and the second for the pan being far finer powder. Could it be, regarding how much to use, that these scrotum flasks could measure using the stopper or lid device to fill a set amount of powder? In Oman set powder charge amounts could be pre loaded onto a sort of bandolier which I think evolved from the Ottoman form; sometimes a brass or wooden, silver often hexagonal, small tube with a stopper(the wadd) of the exact amount you could just tip down the barrel. sliding in the ball and wadd, ramming and ready!... In addition there was always the simple method of carrying a brass measure into which powder could be accurately poured...then transferred to the barrel.

I use the word bandolier cautiously as some indications are that these apparent sections of what look like a belt were in fact carried in a pouch/bag and not around the waist or across the chest.

Please see http://www.omanisilver.com/contents/...Matchlock.html where this site has really got its act together and at Matchlocks it has almost every aspect of this subject as applied to Oman.

[kahnjar1]

[QUOTE=Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Ibrahiim.

I've occassionally wondered wheather the medium/larger hard leather flasks were more commonly used to carry water versus gunpowder. Sort of like a Spanish leather wine bola. (?) Of course the moulded leather would work well to carry either. My thinking was also based on the rather large opening in the Persian style flasks. Seems more suited for drinking water than pouring powder.
Here are three hard leather flasks. The two larger ones have the wide opening and are just large enough to act as a small canteen to carry a reasonable amount of water. The smaller Arab style flask (associated with the camel scrotum style) with it's narrow, tapered neck seems better suited to pour gunpowder into a measure or barrel. And it's way to small to act as a canteen.

That said, many of the Ethno flasks/horns tend to have larger diameter pour spouts than their European counterparts. Especially the Moroccan horns. One theory I have for this is that an approximate amount of powder was simply pourded into the palm of the other hand, instead of a pre-formed measure, before inserting into the barrel.


Hello rickyst, Good point ! I have the impression that a number of solutions worked... First that two powder flasks were used the first being somewhat coarser powder for the main barrel charge and the second for the pan being far finer powder. Could it be, regarding how much to use, that these scrotum flasks could measure using the stopper or lid device to fill a set amount of powder? In Oman set powder charge amounts could be pre loaded onto a sort of bandolier which I think evolved from the Ottoman form; sometimes a brass or wooden, silver often hexagonal, small tube with a stopper(the wadd) of the exact amount you could just tip down the barrel. sliding in the ball and wadd, ramming and ready!... In addition there was always the simple method of carrying a brass measure into which powder could be accurately poured...then transferred to the barrel.

I use the word bandolier cautiously as some indications are that these apparent sections of what look like a belt were in fact carried in a pouch/bag and not around the waist or across the chest.

Please see http://www.omanisilver.com/contents/...Matchlock.html where this site has really got its act together and at Matchlocks it has almost every aspect of this subject as applied to Oman.

Here is a pic of an Omani one which I have, which is definitely designed for , and is on its original belt.
Stu

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

[QUOTE=kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Here is a pic of an Omani one which I have, which is definitely designed for , and is on its original belt.
Stu

Yes it is interesting as http://www.omanisilver.com/contents..._Matchlock.html who as I say have gotten their act together much better but who infuriatingly do not allow cut n paste or any such copying even for educational and research purposes ...hisss!!! appear to suggest that these systems may not have had a belt... They may be right and as I see it the difficulty in deciding if these are all genuine belts is by no means easy and since they are leather I tend to agree they may be added later ....it is difficult to say... but they suggest not. I was always of the opinion that they came with a belt... but that is because the Omani tendency to wear gun belts with Martini Henry ...and before that who knows?

I think what you can say is the unit you have may have been added to many times but that being certain it all started off as original may be more difficult ...not that it detracts from the item which benefits from the charm of being old in several parts.

The other conundrum is the powder flask which some say is Moroccan some say Ottoman but which the same people say is Omani... I always thought it was but many claim it is not... I suppose it is who influenced who? and if the item has become embedded in the culture ?...It would appear that the Omani Talahiq; the silver half moon shape powder flask has a lot of influence from Ottoman style and of course abu futtila were originally Persian, Indian and German derived.