Russian Khyber knife

[ariel]

It is finished on e-bay, so I am within my rights to post the pics.

Here is a classical Afghani Khyber knife ( Selaava), with all bells and whistles. No doubt about it being old and authentic.

However, its blade bears a clear mark of the Russian Zlatoust Weapon Factory.

Does anyone have any other examples of Russia-made blades of such a distinct profile among the Afghani Khybers in the 19th century?

[ausjulius]

im no expert but id say blade is to crude form something form zlatoust.
as smiths do in that area.. id say they may have added a stamp they have seen to add value to their product.. could be wrong.. but ..

[ariel]

That's what I thought too, but I found identical marks on items coming from old Russia. Did the Afghanis forge a special stamp? If so, that would not be the only example, and that was exactly what I was asking. Or is it known that Zlatoust made a special order of the blades?

[mahratt]

It would be interesting to see the same stamp on the authentic Russian items from Zlatoust.

I think that in this particular case we are dealing with an old Khyber knife on which someone recently put fake stamp Zlatoust.

[mariusgmioc]

Faking such a detailed stamp, and to this level of quality is not an easy task.

[mahratt]

The stamp is not very neat . If we compare with the authentic

[mahratt]

I think soon we can expect many more items with stamps Zlatoust: Afghan Khyber, Ethiopian Gurade Sword, Sudanese Kaskara Sword....


By the way, Russian collectors of weapons from Russia confirmed that a stamp - modern.

[ariel]

This stamp was used by Zlatoust Weapon Factory between 1890's and 1917.
Source http://www.imha.ru/1144531224-proizv...l#.VxPtK_krK01

Here are examples.
Minor variations are expected: no stamping device would survive forever.
The fact that somebody in today's Russia produced a copy proves only one thing: Russian collectors are paranoid not for nothing; they are bombarded with fakes.

[mahratt]

Need to have serious problems with vision, not to see the difference in these stamps))))

[ariel]

OK, folks, let's ignore the snarks etc.

I repeat my question: does anyone here know of any other example of a Khyber or any other 19th century Afghani bladed weapon with Russian stamps? I know about British and, likely, German blades for their short swords/sabers, but nothing Russian.
Is it possible that Afghani military was supplied by both sides of the Great Game?

[AJ1356]

It is quite possible, I think king Abdul Rahman was in Russia before coming to power, or something like that. My history is a bit fuzzy right now. I know later on Soviet made weapons were the norm in Afghan army, post WWII.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by AJ1356

It is quite possible, I think king Abdul Rahman was in Russia before coming to power, or something like that. My history is a bit fuzzy right now. I know later on Soviet made weapons were the norm in Afghan army, post WWII.

Abdurrahman was in Russia, but only in Bukhara (which at that time belonged to the Russian) And Zlatoust and Bukhara are located far from each other. In addition, Abdurrahman did not have such influence, that for him to Zlatoust specially made Afghan weapon with Russian stamps.

Do you know about the production of weapons for Afghanistan in the Soviet Union? ))))) It would be very interesting. Maybe you are talking about deliveries of Russian weapons to the Afghan army?

And here's another question. Do you think that this the Khyber knife is not made in Afghanistan? In your option it produced in Russia?

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

I know about British and, likely, German blades for their short swords/sabers,

It is not difficult to give examples of short swords?

[ariel]

Originally Posted by AJ1356

It is quite possible, I think king Abdul Rahman was in Russia before coming to power, or something like that. My history is a bit fuzzy right now. I know later on Soviet made weapons were the norm in Afghan army, post WWII.

Well, in this particular case we are dealing with a pre-1917 revolutionary Zlatoust, as evidenced by the orthography and the double-headed eagle.
What alternative explanations do we have?
1. old Afghans stole the stamping device from Zlatoust. What for? Would wild Pushtuns give a dam about having a Russia-made weapon?
2. old Khyber was recently re-branded with a fake device. But then, again what for? This would not increase the value of the sword and, indeed, it did not sell despite being priced in line with other khybers. And it did not come from Russia.
3. A traveling Zlatoust salesman showing his samples to Gilzais or Khazara? No comment:-)
4. An order of some CA khan, a vassal of the Tsar, for a batch of Zlatoust blades for his Royal butchers?

Anything else?

Old Roman approach " Qui prodest?", Who benefits? doesn't seem to help.

I am confused.....

This stamp is a real curveball.

[mahratt]

We have a modern stamp) ) ) And all further discussion of the subject - science fiction in the style of Bradbury and Moorcock ) ) ) ) )

Why put a modern stamp on the old Khyber knife - it is a mystery. Versions can be many. From a simple joke. Prior to check stamp. That is, maybe someone before you put a stamp on a modern copy of Russian weapons, decided to practice on a cheap Khyber knife.

[ariel]

Folks,
Please look at the small stamp in the lower left corner of the upper pic I presented: it was taken from the academic site of Zlatoust markings and one can find it in the reference I provided.
Personal opinions of some Russian Forumites are interesting, but not of the same evidentiary value.
Showing a modern copy of a stamping device is also educational, but we still do not know what stamp it leaves.

Thus the Jury ( you) is still out . We have a material object: Khyber with a Russian stamp. This is a fact. Are there additional facts, both pro and con, rather than speculations of uncertain validity?

[mahratt]

Please show an example of Russian weapons with a stamp identical stamp in Afghanistan Khyber. While those stamps that you have shown very different (stamp on the Afghan Khyber gives double contour picture). This is clearly seen in the photo from the post number 9.

[TVV]

I am sorry but this looks to me like an old blade with a fake modern stamp as well. Just because the item failed to achieve a high price, does not mean there was no such intent by whoever put the stamp on. The fact tat it failed to sell seems to indicate that most buyers were put off by the marking.

Teodor

[ariel]

Teodor,
I mentioned its asking price just to assure the audience that the seller was not grotesquely unreasonable; he asked a price comparable or even lower than many other similar items. Still, the seller's listing price, although extremely modest in absolute terms, was IMHO too high : khybers of similar quality have been sold ( not listed!) for ~ $100-200 less, not nearly enough to justify selling a fake and ruining his reputations as a respected dealer.


It surely does not mean IMHO that potential buyers were turned off by the stamp.


I acknowledge comments of Russian collectors, but the mark is identical to the pic ( small rectangle , lower left corner of the upper pic of my examples) that is taken from the official academic, referenced Russian site. Thus, we have academic document against personal opinions.

I see nothing that would convince me that the Khyber stamp is a fake: no difference in execution, no reason for the seller to gain anything from a forgery.

I have no dog in this fight: I did not buy this Khyber, nor do I intend to. This is just a puzzling historical query. If somebody here with a genuine knowledge and factual evidence proves that the stamp is a fake, I shall be only delighted to learn something new.

Thus, I view this issue as still open.

With best wishes.

[mahratt]

Dear Theodore, we need to see the Russian stamp with double contour. This stamp (double contour) on the arms factory Zlatoust not exist. All participants of the 2 Russian forums without joining in the debate said that the stamp - a fake. And in one case, I put only photos stamp. In order to not influence the opinion of the participants.
Russian saber of light cavalry in 1827 is very different from the later production Zlatoust . It is not well-known marks Zlatoust (with the Russian double-headed eagle stamp). Just inscription (engraving, hand made) on the back of the blade. In Russia, the Russian saber 1827 is 6-10 times more expensive than the French saber 1827. Therefore, this is one of the most counterfeited saber models. And modern masters have reached the highest level in the manufacture of fake.