"Mad Mahdi" Dagger

[Aurangzeb]

[COLOR=Green]Greetings To All !

Here is one of my recent finds at a militaria show at Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.
I believe it to be a late 19th Century Sudanese dagger. I don't think it is an 'arm dagger', it does not have a arm strap or any evidence of ever having one.
Since this does not appear to be an arm dagger, how would this be worn since it does not have a 'belt loop' either ?

"Damn you Fuzzy Wuzzy with a bone stuck through your hair, you're a bloody heathen but you broke a British square"
- Kipling

Any comments / information would be most welcomed and appreciated !

Thank you and enjoy the posted pix !

Mark....

[Conogre]

Three things pop immediately to mind, one being that many in the Sudan don't wear "belts" as such , but rather a wound sash......of what use is a "belt loop" to a person wearing a sash?
Likewise, many are just tucked into the top of boots, with the third instance being a seperate "frog" such as the turn of the century Philippine knife that I just aquired from Vern, where the "loop" is a seperate piece of leather through which the scabbard/sheath proper slides in order to be carried on a western style belt.
Mike

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Aurangzeb,
Outstanding find! What you have there certainly does appear to be a dagger from the 'Mahdiyya' (1881-1898) in the Sudan. I should point out though that I don't think in this particular instance the Mahdi was ever termed 'mad'
I think the term considered was possibly from that used to describe the 'Mad Mullah of Somaliland' Sheikh Sayyid Muhammed c.1903, in events very similar to the the Mahdist revolt and British entanglement in Egyptian affairs. At this time of high Imperial attitudes though,the term may have been applied in singular instance, as it was often used to describe the religiously based and intense opposition of any individual to British rule.

The British writers of the period tended to interpolate many narratives of colonial events with slang and terminology often derisively toward the 'savages' . For example the term 'dervishes' was typically used to describe the native warriors, and was actually a term which came from more common use in India (Pers. darvish=religious mendicant), used colloquially by the British military from the Raj there. It should be noted that the Turkish derivation of the word, and certainly found in Egypt, meant loosely beggar. Although the term dervish was once applied to themselves, the Mahdi opposed its use and applied the term 'ansar' (from the Koran =helper). He actually installed strict punishment for those who insisted on the use of the formerly applied 'dervish'. The term 'fuzzy-wuzzy' was directed to the much feared Hadendowa tribal swordsmen.
While these slang terms were used often colloquially and in some perspective, derisively for the many groups of Mahdist forces, the poems by Kipling reflect the general consensus of British forces,that native warriors were actually not only feared but highly respected for thier courage in battle.

This dagger is very similar to an example associated with weapons from Dongola province in northern Sudan, near the 3rd cataract, and interestingly is the region that the Mahdi himself, Mohammed Ahmed ibn el-Sayyed Abdullah , was born. The simple elongated hilt form is similar to the broad hilt 'jambia' daggers of Mughal India (Pant. p.161, fig.464) and it is interesting to note that other Indian weapon forms also appeared in the Sudan in this period, and were accordingly decorated with 'thuluth' motif.

As has been noted , this is clearly not the typical arm dagger often worn by Hadendowa and other tribal warriors, so actually has little to do with 'fuzzy wuzzies but seems actually to belong to tribal groups farther north.

I very much like the way you have displayed the dagger with associated Sudanese coinage and currency, extremely impressive and really enhances the historic nuances of the piece. Actually this recalls the many times we have relied on nusimatic evidence in the identification of many ethnographic weapons. Nicely done!

Best regards,
Jim

[ariel]

The British were always immensely proud of their ability to stay the ground and keep their ranks: this was a survival requirement sine qua non, otherwise the disorganised infantry unit became an easy prey to the attacking cavalry. The most famous example of it was the "Thin Red Line" of the Scotch infantry that withstood the Russian cavalry charge at Balaclava (by the way, on the very same day that the famous Charge of the Light Brigade took place).
Well, Sudanese Mahdists bear the distinction of dispensing with the tradition an breaking "the British Square". Not a mean achievement!

[Conogre]

Once again, Jim comes to the rescue with a collection of little known bits of information....where DO you find these jems?
Since you brought up the Hadendowa, you've opened the door to several questions and a couple of comments.
As I've stated before, my first sword was a kaskara brought back to me from Eritrea of a simple form and with a black "fuzzy" ball attached to the hilt, which, I believe, is also associated with the Mahdi?
Likewise, I recently aquired a dagger usually associated with Haddendoa, with an exagerated, almost X-shaped hilt and a tooled leather sheath, this specimen one with the J-shaped blade, which made me realize that I don't think that I've ever seen a Haddendoa dagger with a loop of any kind.
Is the common dress from this area primarily arabic style robes, such as those worn by the Bedouins and Tauregs?
If the question sounds simplistic, excuse me, but my mind just hit a nick in the record that almost knocked "African" right out of the picture! **knife**
From discussions with my son, I was advised that the majority of the area is now desert, which he found truly ironic as the native names for parts of the country are still used by tribesmen, which translates as "black jungle" and like ilk.
Spears from that area, he said, were almost impossible to find intact as the majority of the shafts have long since been cannibalized for cooking fires, with the only other source being dried camel and donkey dung, which probably makes it fortunate that the predominate religion is now musim.....I'm fairly sure smoked pork ribs would have a distinct flavor, eh?
How's that for a can of worms?
By the way, that IS a beautiful dagger Mark, and a distinct variation from the form more commonly seen...aren't those known as "Waldmen daggers"? **grin**
Mike

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Mike,
Thank you for the kind comment!! All this stuff is packed in the cobwebs in my skull!!
Actually the Sudan is huge, one of the largest countries of Africa, and in the north it is mostly stony, arid desert. The southern regions are mostly scrub, swamp and morasses, the sudd. It would be difficult to begin to describe the traditional dress of the tribal units in the major groups, but it seems most wear varying forms of robes or jibba's, with groups toward Red Sea regions often basically wearing loin covering garments.

The Hadendoa are a large sub-tribe of the Beja (bay-za) who inhabit Red Sea regions from Sudan and into Eritrea. It is interesting to note that the kaskara (termed locally sa'if only, the term kaskara is virtually unknown in the regions where they are used) is well known in Eritrea and into Somalia where carried by the Afar and Danakil. A friend who is Beja in discussions concerning the X-hilt daggers noted to me that the rather hooked blade examples of these were actually not Hadendoa, but either Afar or Danakil. The distinctive hilts are of course the same as Hadendoa.

The black tassle or tuft you have noted on your kaskara is something that seems to occur on examples especially from Darfur regions. I am uncertain whether the color varies or the specific significance of these, however it would seem the color black was especially auspicious and associated with the black color he assigned to himself and his number one khalif.

Ariel,
It was great to meet you in Timonium! I really enjoyed our talk ,and you are quite keen on military history!! How appropriate it is to mention here 'The Thin Red Line' ...the brilliant Highlanders of the 93rd Regiment at Balaclava. I sense indescribable pride recalling the courage of these outstanding warriors,
"There is no retreat from here men! You must die where you stand!"
Sir Colin Campbell, commander
The response was 'ay ay Sir Colin, needs be we'll do that!'

The volleys and steadfastness of the Highlanders unnerved the huge numbers of Russian cavalry, whose order failed and ended in retreat.

As you have shown, British infantry formations were remarkably formidable, and this illustrates clearly the incredible achievement of these native warriors in accomplishing the breaking of these 'squares'.

All the best,
Jim

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...How appropriate it is to mention here 'The Thin Red Line' ...the brilliant Highlanders of the 93rd Regiment at Balaclava. I sense indescribable pride recalling the courage of these couragous warriors,
"There is no retreat from here men! You must die where you stand!"
Sir Colin Campbell, commander
The response was 'ay ay Sir Colin, needs be we'll do that!'

The volleys and steadfastness of the Highlanders unnerved the huge numbers of Russian cavalry, whose order failed and ended in retreat.
...

Who'd have thought Jim would submit to nationalistic pride!?

It was great seeing you this weekend, my friend.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Andrew!
Ya got me there!!!All it takes is a little Drambuie and out comes the trusty basket hilt! Oops gotta be careful....last time I just about took out my ceiling fan!!
It was fun seeing you too,
Jim

[Aurangzeb]

Hi all!!

Thanks for all the help on my Sudanese dagger.I personally think the dagger might have even have been tuked in the sash of the warrior.The coins depicted with the dagger are only a small fraction of my Islamic/Sudanese coin collection.I do have several questions:First,are there any recommended books on sudanese weapons and the British-Sudanese war?Second,this question may seem dumb but,Why is Sudan sometimes called"The Sudan" instead of just"Sudan".Also the tip of the dagger protrudes from the sheath slightly,chould anything be done to fix the minor problem? Finally,what is the fighting style with this dagger type,is it like the fighting style with a kaskara?

Any further info whould be appreciated,thanks to all...hopefully i'm not beeing a pest.
thanks all

[Aurangzeb]

Hi All!

Here are a few questions that I was hoping some of you may be able to help me find an answer for. Regarding an earlier posting I personally think the dagger might have been tucked in the sash.

Question:1 - Could anyone recommend any books on Sudanese Weapons from that peroid or books on the English-Sudanese war?

Question:2 - Are there non-negro ethnic groups in the Sudan such as Arab/Berbers?

Any further help other than what several of you have so kindly posted would be most appreciated ! I apologize if any of my questions seem amateurish but I am fairly new to this hobby being only 13 years old. I find it quite fascinating and I really appreciate and thank those of you who have taken the time to post some very informative replies !

Best regards,

Mark.. a.k.a. Aurangzeb

[Tim Simmons]

Hello Aurangzeb. What a wonderful piece of history to owen at 13.There are many books on the Sudan wars,they often rather wordy unless you read avidly.When I was 13 I had no money,I shall assume the same for you.You could try ,osprey miitary man-at -arms series these are very good value for money.No59 Sudan Campains 1881-98 and no215 Queen Victoria's Enemies:2 North Africa.Warning the Sudan will draw you in and take all your money for the rest of your life. Tim

[Aurangzeb]

Hello all!

Is my idea that my dagger might have been tucked in the sash logical or illogical?Also thanks Tim ,I immeadiatly went to Ebay And found one of the books you told me about.(and of course bought it )

P.S.-The Sudan has already sucked me in,and is slowly taking my money,but I find it fasinating!

Thanks!!

[Aurangzeb]

Hi all!

IIs there any way to bring out or restore the worn Koranic inscriptions on the bade of my Sudanese Dagger?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

[Rick]

I think , in this case the best course of action would be to leave it alone . There is not much that you can do for etched resist lettering other than darkening the entire blade and then sanding or polishing the script which would wear it down even more .

Remember the motto , "First do no harm."

[Aurangzeb]

Hi Rick!

Thanks for ansering my question.Thank god you told me this before I had time to experiment! Just kidding I am so paranoid about damaging any of my daggers I chould never experiment on them! Upon closer inspection of the blade I found that the engraving is barely worn,it was just an optical illusion from slight pitting and bad lighting in the room.

Thanks for the help!

P.S.-how do you spell the name of that Uzbekistan dagger that looks like a meat cleaver,I ask because I know some guy's going to Uzbekistan for a while and am going to tell them to look for one?

[Rick]

Well a dagger is for stabbing and a meat cleaver is for chopping so I'm not sure what weapon you are referring to .

[Aurangzeb]

Hi Rick!

The type of dagger i'm reffering too isfor chopping,I have heard that many daggers of this type were made after the soviet union broke up in 1990 or 91.
The sheath usually swallows up some of the handle and a few were on Ebay a while ago.Hopefully what I have attempted to describe will help.I have no clue what the type is called or spelled.

[Rick]

Ahh , a kindjal or a qama perhaps ?

[Aurangzeb]

Hi rick!

I think it is a kindjal,I just chould not think of the name of it and it was bugging me!

[Freddy]

Hi Mark,

If you are interested in the history of the Sudan, especially the period of the Mahdi and afterwards, you should try to find this book :

- KARARI -
The Sudanese Account of the Battle of Omdurman

by Ismat Hasan Zulfo (1980)
(translated from the Arabic by Peter Clark)

ISBN : 0 7232 2677 6 5 (hard cover) or 0 7232 2499 4 (paperback)

This books tells the story of the battle of Omdurman and everything preceding it, from the view of the Sudanese. Most book on this topic are written by European writers using European (British) sources. This book gives a new perspective to the story. Really interesting.

Freddy

[tom hyle]

In answer to your question, in Sudan are numbers of people known as Arabs, and of Arabian descent, who to N Americans seem to be black Africans; thus we see this is somewhat a cultural/linguistic distinction; the construct of race, while having some validity, is a construct, and not one that exists or is prominant in all cultures. This helps to confuse matters when the N American newsmedia refer to the black Arabs as Arabs and the black Chrisitians and animists as black.

[Aurangzeb]

Hi all!

I recently found this metal etching on the internet.Take note that one of the Sudanese has a pistol tucked into his sash,whould this mean that my dagger as well might have been tucked in a sash around the waist?Sorry if the picture does not send I'm really am not good with a computer!

By for now

[Rivkin]

About kindjals and Sudan - I always thought that the slave trade in Sudan in the past few centuries was controlled by Circassians, I always thought that after the annihilation of mameluks by Arabs in Egypt they've finally settled in Dankla and other northern cities (Sudan remained under the mamluk control for a few extra decades).

But I've never seen any caucasian weaponry coming from Sudan.

To Jim: ugh, you may be surprised but until the latest DNA research was conducted, majority of georgians believed in their blood relation to celts, specifically to highlanders.

[Aurangzeb]

Hi Rivkin!

There must have been a slight misunderstandin(Probably a typo on my part,I'm not a good typist ).I was asking about kindjals in addition to my Sudanese dagger.

Sorry for the misunderstanding

[Jim McDougall]

To Jim: ugh, you may be surprised but until the latest DNA research was conducted, majority of georgians believed in their blood relation to celts, specifically to highlanders.[/QUOTE]

Rivkin,
Not sure I'm clear on what this means, especially the 'ugh'.
It seems the Khevsurs of mountain regions in Georgia have legends where they are presumed to have French ancestry from the time of the crusades, but didn't know about Highlander associations, other than the fact that Khevsurs were also considered 'mountaineers' or highlanders. Tell me more.
Best,
Jim

[Rivkin]

It's hard to be objective in describing the theory you really dislike.

In general, based mostly on linguistics the dominant "caucasian" was that "old" european nations - caucasians, celts and etruskians (with sometimes basques being added to this list) share the common ansectry.

The obvious problem with using lingustics is that common language elements can be just a coincidence, or the result of common influence by a third language, and so on, and so on.

But the theory was and is tremendously popular (mostly due to it's confirmation of "european" nature of caucasians and their "ancient" status).

Concerning khevsurian beliefs, it's more of a historic fact - 300 european knights under the leadership of a french knight (I don't remember the name, but I think his initials were HM) came to Georgia to help in the war against seljuks and arabs (that to that moment was raging for 200+ years). Under their influence, Georgia adopts the crusader symbolics (today georgian flag is a jerusalem cross, symbol of templars) and joins the crusade.
It's unclear where they've settled after the battle at Didgori (where they've played an important role), but everyone who wishes to do so, claims the ancestry from them.

Another references to this fact are caucasian "bees" (crosses) on caucasian kindjals/swords and initials HM, also sometimes appearing on kindjals.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Rivkin,
Thank you for explaining that, well done! Actually I didn't have any problem with any theory, just wanted to be sure I understood correctly.
I have always been very fascinated by the history and weapons of the Caucusus and appreciate the interesting information.
All the best,
Jim

[ariel]

A friend of mine who is a linguist dealing with "protolanguages" told me that one of thr greatest mysteres of the European languages is the connection between the Basque and the Georgian; apparently, basque does not relate to anything else!
The Latin letters "HM" mentioned by Rivkin are often seen next to the "running wolf" mark on Solingen blades. Allegedly, these are initials of Henry Montmorancy, one of the French crusaders, whose soldiers went to the Caucasus and brought the "ters maimun" with them.

[Yannis]

Very interesting turn in the topic!

Originally Posted by ariel

A friend of mine who is a linguist dealing with "protolanguages" told me that one of thr greatest mysteres of the European languages is the connection between the Basque and the Georgian; apparently, basque does not relate to anything else!

There is a strange relation between Caucasus and South West Europe. In the ancient world both present day Spain and a big part of present day Georgia were known as “Iberia”. Georgian Iberia was allied to Rome. It became a Byzantine province in the sixth century A.D.

[Jim McDougall]

Yannis and Ariel,
Outstanding information!!!Thank you so much for adding these facts. I had often wondered what the HM regarded, and I think it is fascinating to discover the connections between Georgia and so much other history. It seems these are the things that one seldom learns in standard history material generally available here in the west.
I really enjoy it when a topic is not necessarily changed but expanded, a complete learning experience! Well done and thank you guys!
All the best,
Jim