A composed Malay keris; is it matching?

[Sajen]

Dear Members,

years ago I bought all this parts separately. Sheath and wilah in Germany at a weapon market, hilt in Indonesia and the pendokok in KL. By the sheath I am nearly sure that it is a Malay sheath, I think that the sampir is from Kettengga. The silver covers shows in my humble opinion typicical malay engraving. At the bottom is an arabic date, 1272 (?), so I think that the sheat is from 1855. The huge Bugis wilah is 35 cm (13,8 inch) long and have 7 luk. The big kerdas hilt is from very well patinated hippo ivory. The recent pendokok from silver was bought in KL.
My question: is it a matching ensemble? And from which area of the Peninsula are the sheath?

All comments are very appreciated,

Detlef

[PenangsangII]

I think even the blade is Peninsula origin. As such, the hilt and pendongkok are not that matching as they are very Bugis to me.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

I think even the blade is Peninsula origin. As such, the hilt and pendongkok are not that matching as they are very Bugis to me.

Thank you very much for comment. I agree that the pendokok looks more Bugis. Respective the hilt I still have a lot of problems to differentiate between Bugis and Peninsula kerdas hilts.
Do you have a clue from where the sheath?

Regards,

Detlef

[Jean]

Helo Detlef,
Sorry, in my opinion the inscription on the buntut reads 1372 in Hijra calendar, not 1272, corresponding to about 1954 from Gregorian calendar. It looks more realistic...
Best regards
Jean

Originally Posted by Sajen

Dear Members,

years ago I bought all this parts separately. Sheath and wilah in Germany at a weapon market, hilt in Indonesia and the pendokok in KL. By the sheath I am nearly sure that it is a Malay sheath, I think that the sampir is from Kettengga. The silver covers shows in my humble opinion typicical malay engraving. At the bottom is an arabic date, 1272 (?), so I think that the sheat is from 1855. The huge Bugis wilah is 35 cm (13,8 inch) long and have 7 luk. The big kerdas hilt is from very well patinated hippo ivory. The recent pendokok from silver was bought in KL.
My question: is it a matching ensemble? And from which area of the Peninsula are the sheath?

All comments are very appreciated,

Detlef

[Jean]

Sorry, after looking again it is actually 1373 Hijra so about 1955 Gregorian.

Originally Posted by Jean

Helo Detlef,
Sorry, in my opinion the inscription on the buntut reads 1372 in Hijra calendar, not 1272, corresponding to about 1954 from Gregorian calendar. It looks more realistic...
Best regards
Jean

[Sajen]

Hello Jean,

thank you for comment. In my humble opinion is a two in arabic writing with one check mark in up while a three is with a double check mark. But I may be wrong by this. Maybe someone is more used than I am in arabic writing can confirm this.

Best regards,

Detlef

[BluErf]

Hi,

The sheath looks N. Peninsula, though the silver works are not so clear. I don't think there is a 'typical' Malay motif?

The hilt and pendoko are Sulawesi in style. blade could be Straits Bugis.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by BluErf

Hi,

The sheath looks N. Peninsula, though the silver works are not so clear. I don't think there is a 'typical' Malay motif?

The hilt and pendoko are Sulawesi in style. blade could be Straits Bugis.

Hi Kai Wee,

thank's for comment. You confirm the the comment from Penangsang about hilt and pendokok, so I have to change both by time when I will find something more adequate.
I don't know if you know the book "The Invincible Krises 2". There is shown at page 49 a Peninsula keris which have a pendok with nearly the same motif. The author write that this shows the peony flower (queen of flower) and that this shall show a chinese influence. I have no proof if this is correct.

Regards,

Detlef

[kai]

Could the sampir be a later replacement? The fit of the pendok at the bae of the crosspiece seems a bit weird to me...

Regards,
Kai

[Sajen]

Hi Kai,

possible but I don't think so. I received the sheath like this and have opened all parts of the pendok to clean all parts separately and the patination shows that the the parts have been long together like this. The top part of the "pendok" is fixed with a small nail in the back.

Regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Jean

Sorry, after looking again it is actually 1373 Hijra so about 1955 Gregorian.

Hello Jean,

Dom translated the the arabic date again and confirmed my translation.

Regards,

Detlef

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Jean,

thank you for comment. In my humble opinion is a two in arabic writing with one check mark in up while a three is with a double check mark. But I may be wrong by this. Maybe someone is more used than I am in arabic writing can confirm this.

Best regards,

Detlef

Hi Sajen
you are correct, it's 1272 that we should read
that way of writting is formal, and the script is conform

if the writing is "current" we could found the number 3 written as Jean thinks,
but here we are not in this case, it must be formal

if Jean, was logic he could read 1373 and not 1372
any way, on my point of view it's a wrong interpretation ... sorry Jean

Best Regards

à +

Dom

[Jean]

Hi Dom,
I was logical since I corrected to 1373 in my latest thread and I don't mind to be wrong but would like the confirmation from a Maly member just for my reference.
Best regards
Jean

Originally Posted by Dom

Hi Sajen
you are correct, it's 1272 that we should read
that way of writting is formal, and the script is conform

if the writing is "current" we could found the number 3 written as Jean thinks,
but here we are not in this case, it must be formal

if Jean, was logic he could read 1373 and not 1372
any way, on my point of view it's a wrong interpretation ... sorry Jean

Best Regards

à +

Dom

[Sajen]

Hi Jean,

I have seek after the information here: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabisches_Alphabet

Maybe this is helpful for you.

Best regards,

Detlef

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Jean

the confirmation from a Maly member just for my reference.

Hi Jean
please proceed, but what best reference than from an native Arab, Arabic speaker
as far as it's concerning Arabic language

best regards

à +

Dom

[David]

I am certainly no expert on Aribic, but it should be kept in mind that regardless of the date, it is not really any solid proof of when this silver work was actually done. The date could be merely commemorative....or it might not even be a date at all.

[Sajen]

I also don't mind to be wrong (I think we all have been wrong one time) but I think when we translate a date it should be correct, this have been my interest. And I am sure we can believe Dom by this.
Of course it may be possible that the date not certainly the date when the silver work was been done but the accepting is nearby. I have tried to take some pictures of the keris from the book and I hope that it is to seen that the style is so similar that it may be possible that it have been the same artist. This pendok is also dated in the same way. The date is 1281 AH = 1864 AD. There is a time difference from only 9 years so it's really possible that it have been the same artist and that the date is the date of fabrication.

[Dom]

to illustre how the engraver is writting
here a date (funny) wrote in Arabic, but following the gregorian calendar

the 2 and the 3 are well recognizable



à +

Dom

[kai]

Hello Detlef,

possible but I don't think so. I received the sheath like this and have opened all parts of the pendok to clean all parts separately and the patination shows that the the parts have been long together like this.

Great, that's what close first-hand examination is good for...

Did you possibly took any pics? It's always interesting to see hidden details! (Can give valuable clues to crafting methods, etc.)

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Detlef,

I hope that it is to seen that the style is so similar that it may be possible that it have been the same artist.

Yes, that's also a nice keris!

However, if you look closely at the embossing work as well as the date engraving, there are also obvious differences. I doubt that we can trace this back to the same workshop much less the same artisan despite the similar date applied.

Regards,
Kai

[David]

Please excuse this westerners ignorance, but isn't Arabic usually read from right to left? Is it different for numbers?

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Detlef,


Great, that's what close first-hand examination is good for...

Did you possibly took any pics? It's always interesting to see hidden details! (Can give valuable clues to crafting methods, etc.)

Regards,
Kai

Hello Kai,

sorry, no pictures have been taken to this time. About the crafting methods: The sampir is mounted like usuable together with the gandar. The embossing work is very well crafted in my eyes (see picture) and I think that the "pendok" parts are worked from thick silver plated brass like to seen at the second picture. At this picture (the upper part of the "pendok" from the back) is a further arabic writing but hardly readable.

Regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Detlef,


Yes, that's also a nice keris!

However, if you look closely at the embossing work as well as the date engraving, there are also obvious differences. I doubt that we can trace this back to the same workshop much less the same artisan despite the similar date applied.

Regards,
Kai

Of course this have been a speculative guess!

[Dom]

Originally Posted by David

Please excuse this westerners ignorance, but isn't Arabic usually read from right to left? Is it different for numbers?

Hi David
don't mention,
yes, it's different and cause of a lot of error, even for the Arab
coze we mention
- in first the "thousand"
- then the hundred,
- then the units,
- and at last the 'tenth"
and from left to right,
while the text is read from right to left

à +

Dom

[Sajen]

Hi Dom,

any change to decode the other inscription?

Regards,

Detlef

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi Dom,

any change to decode the other inscription?

Regards,

Detlef

Hi Detlef
here all my best ...

SANA either YEAR
1281 either 1864


MA??
no way to go further ... sorry

my translations are "only" translations, no guarantee of authenticity as to their validity
no commitment on OUR part at this level,
our capabilities are limited to a deep knowledge of the Arabic language (Forsa, that means "classic")
and a little knowledge about weapons of the Middle East, and the Great Maghreb

à +

Dom

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Dom

Hi Detlef
here all my best ...

SANA either YEAR
1281 either 1864


MA??
no way to go further ... sorry

my translations are "only" translations, no guarantee of authenticity as to their validity
no commitment on OUR part at this level,
our capabilities are limited to a deep knowledge of the Arabic language (Forsa, that means "classic")
and a little knowledge about weapons of the Middle East, and the Great Maghreb

à +

Dom

Hi Dom,

thank you again! That's more than I supposed to get. This are maybe the initials of the artist.

Kind regards,

Detlef

[David]

Originally Posted by Dom

Hi David
don't mention,
yes, it's different and cause of a lot of error, even for the Arab
coze we mention
- in first the "thousand"
- then the hundred,
- then the units,
- and at last the 'tenth"
and from left to right,
while the text is read from right to left

à +

Dom

Thanks for clearing that up Dom. Of course, as confusing as this sounds to me i always have the greatest admiration for the members her who use English as their second language because as easy as it might come to me i know that it is indeed one of the most difficult languages to master.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by David

Thanks for clearing that up Dom. Of course, as confusing as this sounds to me i always have the greatest admiration for the members her who use English as their second language because as easy as it might come to me i know that it is indeed one of the most difficult languages to master.

Oh, try german!! My wife (from Indonesia) find it sometimes confusing!

[David]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Oh, try german!! My wife (from Indonesia) find it sometimes confusing!

Actually i took 4 years of German in high school. English is a less logical language with far more rules and exceptions to rules so i think in the end it is far more complex and confusing.
BTW, don't try testing my German. After 35 years of not using it after learning it i would be totally lost...