Weird numbers on a shamshir

erlikhan · 26th October 2009, 05:51 PM

What do you think? With steel handguard and grip strap, with razor sharp,strong backed quite heavy blade it looks like a handsome shamshir. However, on both sides there are these figures. Some da Vinci code, or the artist used the blade like a notebook while he was studying elementary level maths?

Dom · 26th October 2009, 07:16 PM

Hi
truely, the sequency is strange

the script form seems 19th

à +

Dom

fearn · 26th October 2009, 07:50 PM

Not some sort of accession or armory numbering?

erlikhan · 27th October 2009, 01:26 PM

Existence of a sequency makes me ignore armoury numbering possibility. Plus it would be a too many digit number. Overall it doesnt make any sense to me. I wouldnt care if I saw it on a paper,but who would spend time to spoil a good blade and engrave a beautiful but nonsense inscription on hard steel? I hope to learn if the sequency means anything special in any culture or religion.

Jim McDougall · 27th October 2009, 09:49 PM

Locker combination?

Seriously though, as noted these numbers seem out of line and inconsistant with armouries or inventories, which typically had some type of stamp with symbol or marking it seems. This blade seems very much like European cavalry sabre blades of early 19th century, and as is well known, European officers favored these Ottoman style 'mameluke' hilts. It seems that this period would be in close proximity with talismanic numerology which was in varying degree popular through the 18th century, and well known earlier as well. Perhaps these numbers are used in such a cryptic arrangement with this being a European officers sword.

Alternatively, the Ottoman army was becoming quite European influenced during the 19th century, perhaps this might be a sabre with a European blade from that circumstance.

Best regards,
Jim

ariel · 27th October 2009, 10:34 PM

Interestingly, the crossguard is made of iron, while the Ottomans favoured brass or ( in the Arabian parts of the Empire) they used a lot of silver.

Michael Blalock · 28th October 2009, 08:56 PM

Maybe an early form of Sudoko. It does have all nine digits. Talismanic.

Royston · 30th October 2009, 05:56 PM

How about a date 12-3-56
I.E 12th March 1856

Followed by a 4 digit armoury number 8974

Roy

Jim McDougall · 30th October 2009, 07:29 PM

Bonk!!!!

Uh..Royston, that makes too much sense!!! Theres gotta be something mystical here .
Well done!!!
All the best,
Jim

Rick · 30th October 2009, 08:18 PM

Then it's just coincidence that the numbers 1 to 9 are in there with no repeats .

Atlantia · 30th October 2009, 09:45 PM

I would think its just a simple failure on the part of the engraver to understand the numerals.
In the same way that westerners wear T-Shirts with japanese logos on them that turn out ot be gobbledegook, and Japanese teenagers wear ones with 'english' logos that range from misspelling to downright rude.
I would think the maker wanted to add a European inscription and something went wrong.
That said, I think the numerals look very early 19thC or earlier.

katana · 31st October 2009, 03:01 PM

Perhaps numerology is the key.....each number has individual significance and I assume that the order in which they are placed, in some way, fortifies their power / meaning ??

Interestingly the sequence begins with '1' ( God) and ends with '4'....which is suggested to signify God (in Eastern religions)...

http://encyclopedia.farlex.com/Master+Numbers+(Numerology)

Regards David

Norman McCormick · 31st October 2009, 04:12 PM

Hi,
The numerals certainly look 18th early 19th Century but whether they are contemporary with these times is difficult to say. I have to agree with Gene in that this seems similar to some pseudo Koranic inscriptions on blades, copied and etched/engraved with no particular knowledge of any meaning and therefore just a random sequence. I hope I'm wrong and someone can attribute some deeper substance to them.
Regards,
Norman.

26th October 2009, 05:51 PM	#1
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Weird numbers on a shamshir What do you think? With steel handguard and grip strap, with razor sharp,strong backed quite heavy blade it looks like a handsome shamshir. However, on both sides there are these figures. Some da Vinci code, or the artist used the blade like a notebook while he was studying elementary level maths? Attached Images Last edited by erlikhan; 27th October 2009 at 01:19 PM.

26th October 2009, 07:16 PM	#2
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	Hi truely, the sequency is strange the script form seems 19th à + Dom

26th October 2009, 07:50 PM	#3
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Not some sort of accession or armory numbering?

27th October 2009, 01:26 PM	#4
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Existence of a sequency makes me ignore armoury numbering possibility. Plus it would be a too many digit number. Overall it doesnt make any sense to me. I wouldnt care if I saw it on a paper,but who would spend time to spoil a good blade and engrave a beautiful but nonsense inscription on hard steel? I hope to learn if the sequency means anything special in any culture or religion.

27th October 2009, 09:49 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Locker combination? Seriously though, as noted these numbers seem out of line and inconsistant with armouries or inventories, which typically had some type of stamp with symbol or marking it seems. This blade seems very much like European cavalry sabre blades of early 19th century, and as is well known, European officers favored these Ottoman style 'mameluke' hilts. It seems that this period would be in close proximity with talismanic numerology which was in varying degree popular through the 18th century, and well known earlier as well. Perhaps these numbers are used in such a cryptic arrangement with this being a European officers sword. Alternatively, the Ottoman army was becoming quite European influenced during the 19th century, perhaps this might be a sabre with a European blade from that circumstance. Best regards, Jim

27th October 2009, 10:34 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Interestingly, the crossguard is made of iron, while the Ottomans favoured brass or ( in the Arabian parts of the Empire) they used a lot of silver.

28th October 2009, 08:56 PM	#7
Michael Blalock Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: dc Posts: 271	Maybe an early form of Sudoko. It does have all nine digits. Talismanic.

30th October 2009, 05:56 PM	#8
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 443	How about a date 12-3-56 I.E 12th March 1856 Followed by a 4 digit armoury number 8974 Roy

30th October 2009, 07:29 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Bonk!!!! Uh..Royston, that makes too much sense!!! Theres gotta be something mystical here . Well done!!! All the best, Jim

30th October 2009, 08:18 PM	#10
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	Then it's just coincidence that the numbers 1 to 9 are in there with no repeats .

30th October 2009, 09:45 PM	#11
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	I would think its just a simple failure on the part of the engraver to understand the numerals. In the same way that westerners wear T-Shirts with japanese logos on them that turn out ot be gobbledegook, and Japanese teenagers wear ones with 'english' logos that range from misspelling to downright rude. I would think the maker wanted to add a European inscription and something went wrong. That said, I think the numerals look very early 19thC or earlier.

31st October 2009, 03:01 PM	#12
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Perhaps numerology is the key.....each number has individual significance and I assume that the order in which they are placed, in some way, fortifies their power / meaning ?? Interestingly the sequence begins with '1' ( God) and ends with '4'....which is suggested to signify God (in Eastern religions)... http://encyclopedia.farlex.com/Master+Numbers+(Numerology) Regards David

31st October 2009, 04:12 PM	#13
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	Hi, The numerals certainly look 18th early 19th Century but whether they are contemporary with these times is difficult to say. I have to agree with Gene in that this seems similar to some pseudo Koranic inscriptions on blades, copied and etched/engraved with no particular knowledge of any meaning and therefore just a random sequence. I hope I'm wrong and someone can attribute some deeper substance to them. Regards, Norman.