Help with origin and age of my Keris

Matt · 9th October 2011, 04:11 PM

Hi,

I have had this keris for a few years. I bought it an estate sale and have always wanted to know more about where it came from. All I know about it is that the gentleman whose estate I purchased it from was stationed in the south pacific during WWII. Any help you could provide as to its possible age or origin would be great. I know that is in rough shape and has little collectable value, but I think it is a neat piece and I would enjoy knowing more about it.

Thank you,
Matt

Rick · 9th October 2011, 05:43 PM

Matt, please upload your pictures to the site .
Directions can be found in posting photos .

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13631

Thanks .

Matt · 10th October 2011, 12:22 AM

Sorry, I had originally included embedded photobucket links but I guess those didn't work.

Rick · 10th October 2011, 02:26 AM

Thanks Matt,
Your links worked, but when you change or cancel your hosting account the pictures disappear from this site and the information without the pictures becomes useless .

Now they are immortalized for future readers !

Thanks,

Rick

kai · 10th October 2011, 09:38 AM

Welcome to the forum, Matt!

Not a royal heirloom piece but certainly looks like a genuine, antique keris from the Bugis-influenced sphere.

It will look better if you obtain a fitting pendokok/selut for it: a cup-shaped bronze/brass piece would suit the ensemble IMHO.

The hilt shows some wear and may be a village version. I've seen hilts of similar shape being referred to the Riau/straits region but I may overlook details hinting at another origin.

All in all a nice piece of history and certainly a very decent start for a keris collection!

Regards,
Kai

Matt · 10th October 2011, 03:09 PM

Thank you kai, the hilt does look similar to pictures of other Riau hilts.

Would this blade have been something that was made for the tourist trade and was sold to the gentleman during the war? Or could it be something older that he picked up while he was there? I always like to imagine the kind of history a genuine object has, and a souvenir piece doesn't spark my imagination much!

Rick · 10th October 2011, 04:04 PM

Doubtful it is a keris made to sell to tourists Matt .

No scabbard ?

Matt · 11th October 2011, 12:19 AM

No, no scabbard.

Is replacing missing scabbards a common practice? I'm not sure if I would want to add one as it wouldn't be original to the piece.

kai · 11th October 2011, 12:48 AM

Hello Matt,

Quote:

the hilt does look similar to pictures of other Riau hilts.

It's certainly not the most common type from that area.

Can the hilt be carefully removed? Maybe try to take a pic of the blade without shadow - this will allow the shape to be seen better.

Quote:

Would this blade have been something that was made for the tourist trade and was sold to the gentleman during the war? Or could it be something older that he picked up while he was there?

Nah, not a tourist piece. If picked up during the WW2 period, both hilt and, especially, blade were likely decades old.

Regards,
Kai

kai · 11th October 2011, 10:00 AM

Hello Matt,

Quote:

Is replacing missing scabbards a common practice? I'm not sure if I would want to add one as it wouldn't be original to the piece.

Replacing missing/damaged scabbards is a very common practice since in the keris culture a keris without scabbard is akin to a nekkid person - thus, hilts and scabbards would get replaced several/many times during the working life of a blade. Also upgrades (or downgrades) are common since changes in status of a person would be expected to be reflected in the fittings.

Of course, this does not necessarily apply to a collector from the western culture. For example, if you prefer to display your keris with blade visible (wall, cupboard, etc.), there's not much point in commisioning a new scabbard. However, I believe that at least adding a pendokok (metal spacer between hilt and blade) would make it look much better (complete). Since this is most likely not a battlefield pick-up nor a royal gift nor some other piece which has a special historic value due to it being documented/preserved in an intact "as found" condition, adding something missing is ok IMHO.

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 11th October 2011, 01:20 PM

Matt, Kai is 100% correct.

Within keris culture, "original" dress means absolutely nothing.

It is the blade, and only the blade that contains the spirit of the keris, the dress is only to protect the blade.

Collectors in the west, who are not a part of keris culture, very often have a preference for older dress, and dress that has been made specifically for the blade concerned, however, this is more related to the culture of antique collecting, rather than being culturally correct for the keris.This western preference now seems to have penetrated some levels of collecting in countries which 100 years ago were definitely culturally orientated towards the keris, however, where keris culture has continued without hiatus, the same standards apply as in times past.

Keris dress is changed frequently throughout the life of a blade. It is often changed when a keris changes its custodian, or when the custodian changes rank, or his position in life, or his fortunes. It may even be changed on the basis of a dream.

Keris are not really like other edged weapons, they are cultural icons, and are subject to a different frame of reference to that which applies to other edged weapons.

The keris that has come into your hands is a very acceptable example of its type, and if it is possible for you, you really should consider trying to provide it with a scabbard.

Matt · 11th October 2011, 04:29 PM

Thanks all for the replies.

I certainly have a lot of information to work with!

I will look into getting a replacement pendokok and possibly a new scabbard down the road.

Here are some pictures of the blade flat on the table with no shadow. I forgot to mention that the overall length of the blade is just under 11" (just over 27.5 cm).

9th October 2011, 04:11 PM	#1
Matt Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 5	Help with origin and age of my Keris Hi, I have had this keris for a few years. I bought it an estate sale and have always wanted to know more about where it came from. All I know about it is that the gentleman whose estate I purchased it from was stationed in the south pacific during WWII. Any help you could provide as to its possible age or origin would be great. I know that is in rough shape and has little collectable value, but I think it is a neat piece and I would enjoy knowing more about it. Thank you, Matt Attached Images Last edited by Matt; 10th October 2011 at 12:21 AM.

11th October 2011, 04:29 PM	#12
Matt Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 5	Thanks all for the replies. I certainly have a lot of information to work with! I will look into getting a replacement pendokok and possibly a new scabbard down the road. Here are some pictures of the blade flat on the table with no shadow. I forgot to mention that the overall length of the blade is just under 11" (just over 27.5 cm). Attached Images

9th October 2011, 05:43 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Matt, please upload your pictures to the site . Directions can be found in posting photos . http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13631 Thanks .

10th October 2011, 12:22 AM	#3
Matt Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 5	Sorry, I had originally included embedded photobucket links but I guess those didn't work.

10th October 2011, 02:26 AM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Thanks Matt, Your links worked, but when you change or cancel your hosting account the pictures disappear from this site and the information without the pictures becomes useless . Now they are immortalized for future readers ! Thanks, Rick

10th October 2011, 09:38 AM	#5
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Welcome to the forum, Matt! Not a royal heirloom piece but certainly looks like a genuine, antique keris from the Bugis-influenced sphere. It will look better if you obtain a fitting pendokok/selut for it: a cup-shaped bronze/brass piece would suit the ensemble IMHO. The hilt shows some wear and may be a village version. I've seen hilts of similar shape being referred to the Riau/straits region but I may overlook details hinting at another origin. All in all a nice piece of history and certainly a very decent start for a keris collection! Regards, Kai

10th October 2011, 03:09 PM	#6
Matt Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 5	Thank you kai, the hilt does look similar to pictures of other Riau hilts. Would this blade have been something that was made for the tourist trade and was sold to the gentleman during the war? Or could it be something older that he picked up while he was there? I always like to imagine the kind of history a genuine object has, and a souvenir piece doesn't spark my imagination much!

10th October 2011, 04:04 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Doubtful it is a keris made to sell to tourists Matt . No scabbard ?

11th October 2011, 12:19 AM	#8
Matt Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 5	No, no scabbard. Is replacing missing scabbards a common practice? I'm not sure if I would want to add one as it wouldn't be original to the piece.

11th October 2011, 01:20 PM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,887	Matt, Kai is 100% correct. Within keris culture, "original" dress means absolutely nothing. It is the blade, and only the blade that contains the spirit of the keris, the dress is only to protect the blade. Collectors in the west, who are not a part of keris culture, very often have a preference for older dress, and dress that has been made specifically for the blade concerned, however, this is more related to the culture of antique collecting, rather than being culturally correct for the keris.This western preference now seems to have penetrated some levels of collecting in countries which 100 years ago were definitely culturally orientated towards the keris, however, where keris culture has continued without hiatus, the same standards apply as in times past. Keris dress is changed frequently throughout the life of a blade. It is often changed when a keris changes its custodian, or when the custodian changes rank, or his position in life, or his fortunes. It may even be changed on the basis of a dream. Keris are not really like other edged weapons, they are cultural icons, and are subject to a different frame of reference to that which applies to other edged weapons. The keris that has come into your hands is a very acceptable example of its type, and if it is possible for you, you really should consider trying to provide it with a scabbard.