The development of the Indian katar

[Jens Nordlunde]

Have any of you given it a thought how the Indian katar developed?
Could it be, that you wait for the 'experts' to answer this question, or have you given it a thought yourself?
I think it would be interesting to see who has given this a tought.
Jens

[Edward F]

Never realy gave it much thought not an item I collect.I think the indian katar is one of a kind don't think their are any other types of punch daggers from other places.why was the katar developed?Most likely out of necessity The katar would be the soldiers secondary weapon a knive would not work well against chain mail but the katar with punching blow could penetrate the chain mail.Some say they were made from broken swords parts.

I feel like its a test hope I got something right.

[Timo Nieminen]

I haven't previously considered it. My first thoughts are that it developed from parrying weapons with a spiked knucklebow. I haven't looked to see if there are surviving spiked knucklebow weapons of sufficient age, but IIRC katars with one or two side blades are relatively old for katars.

Getting rid of side blades makes the katar easier to carry, and I think will make it easier to use in very close combat.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Ok, I will tell you what I have found so far.
Ibn Battuta who travelled in India during the first half of the 15th century described one, and for a long time it was considered to be the first description of a katar.
Mitra, Rajendralala in his book The Antiquities of Orissa, vol. I. The Government of India, 1875. Reprint Indian Studies, Culcutta, 1961, shows a drawing of an even earlier katar.
The katar is drawn from a frize on a Gauri temple, and the temple was build in the 10th or 11th century - it is no 205 on the plate.
When you see thjis katar, it is easy to see how much it has developed.
The plate shows weapons used at the time, and drawn from different figures decorating the many temples there.

[Pukka Bundook]

Good morning Jens,

To see a depiction of such an early katar is Very interesting!
Although we have talked on katars over the years, I have nothing solid to contribute.
My thoughts are that in India, much thought was put into production of weapons. This thought likely came to the (correct) conclusion that a thrust /punch in-line with the forearm is more powerful than one at an angle to it, hence the katar came into being.
Now; I have always wondered Why some early katars have a single bar to grip? The mechanical leverage is so poor, that I do not understand this.
The Very early example above could possibly work for slicing/slashing, but could easily double back on itself in a thrust.
Side -bars would appear ideal for parrying, but the grip needed developing into wider 2-3 or more bars for control.
I apologise if this is a digression, but if a person made a katar with a single bar to grip, and actually tried it to see how it felt in the hand, would not common sense say that the this grip needed refining to control the weapon in use?
This in no way answers your question, and again my apologies!

Richard.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Richard, nice to hear from you.
You are right about the missing side guards and the single cross bar.
You do however sometimes see one cross bar only, even on newer katars like 18th to early 19th century, but they also have side guards which gives a better stability.
This is the earliest katar I have seen or heard of, so I dont know what it looked like fifty or a hundred years earlier, but it must have been a very early form.

[Jim McDougall]

I have always very much admired those collectors and scholars who focus on a singular weapon form or often that field alone. It is these individuals who inherently become authorities on these topics through constant exposure to varying examples and study channeled toward that field.

Jens, is one of these remarkable individuals, who has tenaciously pursued the study of the katar, along with the tulwar, and though he will humbly resist such acclaim, I have always considered him a foremost authority on these arms.

It is fascinating to see this discussion opened on katars, as quite frankly, they have stood among daggers as a unique, unusual and distinct form almost complacently by collectors. It seems that though remarkably unusual in being one of the very few, if not virtually only, venerated instances of a dagger using a transverse grip....there has been no thorough study of their development or history.

The only discussion or noteworthy observations seem typically toward the sword associated with the katar by its transverse grips, the pata, and suggestions on its relation to the dagger form.


It seems of course that the katar developed in Southern India, and it has seemed to me that the weapon began as a slashing weapon. The thrust if I recall correctly, was much disfavored by the Mahratta's and thus may be considered a widely held distinction in combat with daggers and swords.
With this being the case, the transverse grip would have served well in holding the weapon securely in slashing moves.

This very early katar shown by Jens in this fascinating and remarkably revealing illustration, shows a bladed weapon which essentially is a blade with a handle which seems sufficient for slashing, but certainly not thrusting. The incredibly early date suggested by the context in which this is found is compelling and plausibly tempting to presume this to be a prototype for the long enduring dynasty of Indian transverse grip edged weapons..the katar and the pata.

Elgood ("Hindu Arms and Ritual", p.97, 8.58) shows a gauntlet type pata he classifies the earliest known example and from c.1570. On page 149 he notes the evolution of the gauntlet type sword as having evolved from the katars with this defensive feature. These are primarily from Tanjore regions but of course, in India, weapon forms like most of the diversity of India itself, diffused widely.

With these understandings, the questions I have always asked are:

Did the katar as a slashing weapon, and its diffusion to the northern regions perhaps become a thrusting weapon? In discussions over the years, the clearly reinforced armour piercing blades suggest they may have been intended to pierce mail.

Did the katar evolve into 'pata' to extend its reach due to use by mounted warriors? In more modern times, the Mahratta use these in mock combat performances and ceremonies as paired slashing weapons with the effect almost windmill like. Perhaps these were used as slashing weapons by infantry as well?

The remarkably early and quite simple example shown in the book on Orissan antiquities is indeed compelling, but the inevitable question is of course, can this iconographic evidence be relied upon in the estimated date of the context ? Can we be sure of the date/period suggested for these friezes? or is it possible they are work entered later? In India I believe that temples and their associated works are essentially a constantly vibrant and dynamic feature, so it seems possible this could be a later rendering or addition.

Outstanding and long overdue broader attention to one of the most intriguing edged weapons!!!

[fernando]

Giving this subject a thought is something i guess many members (and not only) have done.
However gathering lots of knowledge about it is another thing; the dedication and time consuming needed for such achievement is not for everyone.
We all know the basics, like the katar (jamdhar) is of Rajput origin although its use is widespread. I have read that Rajput and Mughal miniature paintings of the period bear testimony of this fact.
If it is true that this weapon has developed in form since ancient times, it is not less true that variations kept being 'created' until nowadays, sometimes reaching the border of fantasy.
Two examples i like are exhibited in the National Museum of India; one dated 1700, fitted with two flintlock pistols and the other in the dated 18th century fitted with two percussion (bar hammer) pistols.
I know these are not properly in line with the rigorous katar typology, but they are nice pieces ... and are exhibited in a very respectful place.

.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Fernando,
Great entry!!and you are right, a serious a thorough approach to these kinds of specific studies is profoundly not for everyone....in fact, those who truly study the history and development of arms, particularly edged weapons, are relatively few. Most are content to simply follow the material in well known published references, and accept that as the final word without further question.

For example, it is a widely held assumption that many forms of weapons are of Rajput origin, and I can only imagine that to be from the considerable exposure to these warriors during the British period in India. The Rajputs as remarkable warriors had adopted many forms or weapons from other regions and sources, and honed them into examples well known today in collections.
As we have discussed, like the khanda (firangi), the katar may well have moved northward from the transverse grip daggers (as you note correctly termed jamadhar rather than 'katar') and evolved from them. I believe the expansion of Mahratta tribes may well account for these diffusions.

These multi purpose weapons such as pistol equipped katars are always remarkable examples, and I think were the work of innovative armourers always trying to impress their wealthy and noble patrons.

I think India is one of the most defiant cultural spheres when it comes to any sort of defined classification or typologies of its weapons, and while we can of course assemble certain rules of thumb or guidelines, it is with cautious reservation. It takes much more observation and study into nuances and decoration to reasonably classify most of these weapons, but it can indeed be done in some degree. Those with the tenacity to take on this challenge have my utmost respect.

Excellent note on how many weapons evolve through variation and innovation, and very true, many Indian weapons do seem to border on fantasy. I think case in point would be the 'madu', the double horns which became the 'haladie', or double bladed dagger. In this case, I believe this was indeed a weapon with Rajput origins.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The remarkably early and quite simple example shown in the book on Orissan antiquities is indeed compelling, but the inevitable question is of course, can this iconographic evidence be relied upon in the estimated date of the context ? Can we be sure of the date/period suggested for these friezes? or is it possible they are work entered later? In India I believe that temples and their associated works are essentially a constantly vibrant and dynamic feature, so it seems possible this could be a later rendering or addition.

Jim,
This is a very interesting question, and I do understand why you ask it.
I have in none of my books ever seen mentioned, replacements with newer statues or reliefs, they may have been repaired, but I doubt that reliefs or statues have been replaced by newer ones - had there been replacements, I am sure it would have been mentioned. You should also keep in memory, that should the relief where the katar is shown, have been newer than the temple, lets say with two centuries - how would the artist have known, what the katar two centuries earlier would have looked like?

Rajendralala Mitra who wrote the book about the temples in Orissa, was at the time a very well known as well as a very respected historian, and I am sure he would have mentioned it, had the relief been newer. While writing about the temples, he has seen a lot of them, and was able to compare the different reliefs and statues and their age.

I have just finished reading Jonathan Scott's book. In fact he was an 'editor' collecting old manuscripts to publish. Manu of the contributers, had lived at the time of Aurangzeb and later, they had also lived at court, so they knew many of the 'historical' names well. To read about warfare then is something of a parody - not always, but often.

The katar shown below is from Hamza and shows a fully developed katar in the 16th century. Hamza illustrates and old Persian story, and was made for Akbar around mid 16th century.
Notive the very 'sharp' 'V' base. This base was used for centuries.
Jens

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Jens, and very good points!
I am less than well versed in archaeology, but I would imagine that newer or replaced iconography such as stone carving or other would be easily detected by experts. Also, they seem to be able to pretty accurately date these temples and stone work.

This then establishes pretty reliably that this transverse guard feature must have existed as early as 10th century!!!
So this very rudimentary form of a handled blade, presumably for slashing, must have been around in sort of a latent form in minimal degree until its more developed forms in the 16th century.

As always when studying development of weapon forms, there seem to be many cases where there are huge gaps in the linear chronology of the presumed evolution. In this case it is quite simple yet unique, as the transverse grip seems unusual for edged weapons.

Perhaps it is tempting to consider that perhaps this type handle could have evolved from those on shields used in parrying, such as the madu type weapon? Then we would have to consider just how far back that particular form goes.....we know that a number of Indian daggers evolved from animal horns, such as the bichwa and madu madu.

That 'V' base you mention, it seems once you had noted either that or another 'base' feature as distinctive in some degree regionally, possibly Deccan? While I know we are focused on the development of the katar as a form, I cannot resist curiosity on those kinds of features.
Jim

[Jens Nordlunde]

Jim,
The devolopment from this very early katar, to the katar at Akbar's time is quite fantastic.
The 'only' problem is, is to find the sculptures, friezes or whatever to show the development. I feel sure they are there, and have been seen by many people - the problem is, that they may not have been interested in katars.
When speaking about sculptures an friezes, it must be remembered, that a lot were destroyed during and after the many wars over several centuries. Depending on, if the Hindu's or the Muslim's won. So a lot of evidence can have been/has been lost.
Jens

[Ian]

Jens, Jim and others:

When considering monuments and other statuary, we should remember also the mausoleums that have survived to this day in remote parts of the Rajput territories. These proud and determined warriors had to endure repeated invasions and often retreated to the less fertile and less desirable parts of NW India to build their strongholds.

I have a colleague and friend who is a Rajput prince and can trace his family line back to the 10th C CE. The family still occupy the ancestral palace in Gujarat, as well as a former palace (now largely in ruins) dating from the 14th C CE. In the same town as the older palace is the family crematorium which features perhaps a hundred stone memorials to family nobility dating back to the 14th C. The men are always depicted as warriors on horseback with lances, curved swords, a small shield/buckler, and sometimes a bow with a quiver of arrows.

The monuments date from the 14th C to about the end of the 17th or early 18th C. Some of them are too badly worn to get an accurate depiction of the weapons they used, but others show these in clear detail. I have found only one example of a katar depicted on these monuments (see third example below). Based on the weaponry used by the leaders of this Rajput clan, I would say the katar was first used by them probably no earlier than the 16th C CE.

Similar mausoleums likely exist for other Rajput clans, and the information could be obtained from some field research in Gujurat and Rajastan. It's a matter of knowing where to look and who to contact. This is one of those things that's on my bucket list to do.

In the pictures below, the first two monuments are likely from the 15th or 16th C. The third one is probably 17th C. I have not had the inscriptions translated yet, so the dating is approximate only.

Ian.

[fernando]

Outstanding pictures, Ian. Note the katar with a V base shape.
Thanks for sharing

[fernando]

This painting of a person armed with a straight bladed sword and katar comes in ARMS AND ARMOUR Traditional weapons of India, by E. Jaiwat Paul. It doesn't have a text identifying it. Perhaps Jens would tell us what kind of warrior is this; probably a noble, a prince ?
... and its period, judging by the katar ...

.

[Ian]

These are more pictures from the same 14th C Rajput palace that I mentioned above. The first two pictures are of a guardian at the main gate that has been carved in sandstone. I don't know the age of this statue--it could date from later than when the palace was built. There is some damage, but one can see that the "sword" in his hands has a broad straight blade and bulbous hilt, and does not resemble a typical tulwar or khanda. This may be a mace rather than a sword. There is the suggestion of a curved dagger at his waist, reminiscent of a jambiya, possibly with a horse's head hilt. I can see no evidence of a katar.

The second two pictures are of his companion on the other side of the gate whom time has treated less well. This figure also holds the same style of sword or mace, and also has a curved dagger at his waist. Again, no evidence of a katar in what is probably a 14thC or 15thC CE depiction.

Ian

[Jens Nordlunde]

Thank you very much Ian - you have made my day, also thank you to Fernando.
I have very little time now, but I will write to morrow.
All the best
Jens

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All, I have certainly often wondered how this weapon began and observing the number of obviously recycled sword blades ...possibly spoils of war... how these fragments were transformed into useful daggers.

The whats in a word scenario is rather clear...Wikepedia notes at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katar_(dagger); Quote'' The katar or katara (Sanskrit: कट्टार kaţāra or kaţārī, Malayalam: കട്ടാരം katāram, Hindi: कटार kaṭāra or kaṭāri, Kannada: ಕಠಾರಿ kaṭhāri Marathi: कट्यार kaṭyāra, Tamil: கட்டாரி kaţţāri or குத்துவாள் kuttuvāḷ meaning "fist blade") is a type of push dagger from India. The weapon is characterized by its H-shaped horizontal hand grip which results in the blade sitting above the user's knuckles. Unique to South Asia, it is the most famous and characteristic of Indian daggers. Ceremonial katar were also used in worship.


History
The katar originated in southern India where its original name was kattari before being altered to katara (romanized as "katar" by the British) in the north. The earliest forms occur in the medieval Vijayanagara Empire. Katar dating back to this period often had a leaf- or shell-like knuckle-guard to protect the back of the hand, but this was discarded by the later half of the 17th century.

The gauntlet-sword or pata was developed from the katar, according to Middle Ages researcher Tobias Capewell. As the weapon spread throughout the region it became something of a status symbol, much like the Southeast Asian kris or the Japanese katana.

Princes and nobles were often portrayed wearing a katar at their side. This was not only a precaution for self-defense, but it was also meant to show their wealth and position. Upper-class Rajputs and Mughals would even hunt tigers with a pair of katar. For a hunter to kill a tiger with such a short-range weapon was considered the surest sign of bravery and martial skill.

From the 16th century onwards, katar were often made from broken sword-blades. Even old imported European blades were used, especially by the Maratha Empire, and were riveted to projections from the hilt.

After India was colonised by the British, numerous katar were made for the European collectors' market which placed little value on functionality. Among these were the scissors katar with two or three blades that folded together, appearing to be one, until the handle bars were pressed together, when they opened out. These novelty weapons were popular among foreigners but were impractical in actual combat. For example, the blades couldn't be opened after they are thrust into an opponent's body. More importantly, if they were wielded with the blades opened, all the force of the blow would have to be absorbed by the hinge-pins at the root of the blades.

In another modern katar design, single-shot pistols are built into either side of the weapon. In the 18th century, some traditional katar were refurbished with this innovation. The pistols are meant to deal the killing blow after the weapon has been thrust into the enemy. Like most combination weapons, the effectiveness of the pistol-katar is doubtful.

The katar ceased to be in common use by the 19th century, though they were still forged for decorative purposes. During the 18th and 19th century, a distinctive group of katar were produced at Bundi in Rajasthan. They were ornately crafted and their hilts were covered in gold foil. These katar were shown at the Great Exhibition of 1851 in Crystal Palace, London. Since then, the weapon has sometimes been mistakenly referred to in English as a "Bundi dagger".Unquote.

I looked at http://mys.yoursearch.me/images/?cat...rd+blade+katar and extracted some interesting exhibits below some which I have noted above.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Emanuel]

Hello,

Attached are illustrations originally posted by Brian (B.I), dated as 16th and 17th centuries.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...tid=5314&stc=1
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...tid=5315&stc=1
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...tid=5316&stc=1
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...id=10404&stc=1
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...id=10406&stc=1

Elgood had shown some very early sculptures depicting warriors using jamadhar/katar: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=82814


Emanuel

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

From the Met Museum~See http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/...e/search/24306

Daggers of this type, called katars, were designed to be held by the cross bars in a clenched fist. This is one of the few that retains its embossed leather scabbard. Elaborately decorated examples worn thrust through a waist sash, can be seen in many Indian paintings of this period.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Ian,
Thank you very much for showing the hero stones(?) from your friends family. They are very interesting, and even more so should someone, with half an hour of free time :-) decide to start translating the texts.
The third one from the top, the one with the katar could be 16th century (but I am guessing). Compare the katar base to the on from Hamza shown in post 10. You will see that the 'V' on the base is very clear.
A century later the 'V' on the base flattened and sometimes almost dissapeared.
If you look through The Hamza book you will notice that of all the daggers/knives shown more than half are 'normal' daggers, and under half are katars. If you then have a look at King of the World, made about a century later, you will see that the picture has changed, and there are more katars than daggers.
Other katar bases developed in the later centuries, likely due to a new fashion, but the ones shown in Hamza and in King of the World continued to be used for centuries.

Jim and Fernando,
Thank you for your mails. I am not too happy, when you say that the origin of the katar was Rajput. I would be far happier if you said Hindu, as I untill further, believe that the katars origin is south af India.
The warrior Jaiwant Paul shows in his book would likely be a prince or a nobleman, but it is hard to say from which time, maybe late 17th to 18th century. The drawing is new, but it may have been copied from an old miniature.

Ibrahim,
The piece from Wikepedia is interesting reading, but I would not put my name under it.
It is true that the katars with the time got more and more fantastic, like the ones with two pistols attached, but I doubt how practical it was in combat.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Ian,
Thank you very much for showing the hero stones(?) from your friends family. They are very interesting, and even more so should someone, with half an hour of free time decide to start translating the texts.
The third one from the top, the one with the katar could be 16th century (but I am guessing). Compare the katar base to the one from Hamza shown in post 10. You will see that the 'V' on the base is very clear.
A century later the 'V' on the base flattened and sometimes almost disappeared.
If you look through The Hamza book you will notice that of all the daggers/knives shown more than half are 'normal' daggers, and under half are katars. If you then have a look at King of the World, made about a century later, you will see that the picture has changed, and there are more katars than daggers.
Other katar bases developed in the later centuries, likely due to a new fashion, but the ones shown in Hamza and in King of the World continued to be used for centuries. ...

Jens:

Thank you for this very specific information. So it seems that information from the memorial stones of a powerful ruling Rajput clan fits with the other historical evidence that you have collected. And your piece of information about the inverted V-shape at the base of the blade seems to add authenticity to the claim that this monument dates from the 16th or 17th C. I always think it is very neat when different data come to the same conclusions.

Please remember that my dating is approximate only, which is why I said that the use of the katar by this group was probably no earlier than the 16th C. Finding somebody to translate the archaic text has proven challenging (apparently it is neither Sanskrit nor Hindi nor modern Gujarati). And persuading an expert to visit the site to translate the text is another matter (I have been told that my pictures of the text are not very clear for translation purposes).

More to be revealed.

Ian.

[Emanuel]

Additional illustrations of Mughals and potentially Rajputs wearing the katar are shown in the Akbarama from 1568.

So we know that by the 16th century this weapon was known and used north and south by Hindus and Mughals alike.

Emanuel

[Jens Nordlunde]

Ian,

I am by no way a specialist when it comes to stone pieces, but the one you showed could be 16th or 17th century - I am sure the text will show.
Wh have however come a stem further as we now know taht the stone is from Gujarat and likely to be quite old. To this comes that a katar of the same kind as shown in the Hanza is shown.
This katar base was used for centuries, but the earliest I have seen is in the Hamza, and I think it is safe to say, that the stone must be older than 18th century, so 16th to 17th century would not surprice me.
Photographing text on an old worn stone is at best very difficult, and to get someone why knows many if the different languages to go and have a look may be even more difficult.

Emanuel,
Thank you for the pictures they are quite interesting.
Yes we know that the katar was used in Deccan, south India, Rajasthan and maybe even more to the north in the 16th century. It does howeven seem as if it was used less in Rajasthan than to the south - although there is very little evidence to prove this.
It would be fantastic if proof could be found of how the katar developed from the drawing Rajendralala Mitra shows to the fully developed katar shown in the Hamza and other miniatures from the time.

[Emanuel]

One last picture Jens, for posterity. Egerton's plate of the arms of Akbar, from the Ain-i-Akbari.

As for Rajasthan, I had seen a great many jamadhars in Bikaner but sadly they were not dated.

Hopefully Elgood's books on the Jodhpur and Jaipur armouries will shine more light into the matter.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Emanuel,
Thanks for the pictures from Bikaner. I have never been there, unfortunately, but I have seem pictures from the armoury, and it is quite impressive.
A lot of weapons formerly in the Bikaner armoury are now in museums or private collections, so the collection must have been very big before they started to sell from it.
It is well known that a lot of the weapons in the armoury come from Adoni, when the Bikaner Maharaja Anup Singh sacked the fort and returned a lot of booty to Bikaner, while he stayed down there. Other of the weapons likely come from other places in Deccan where Anup Singh also participated in fighting. The problem is, that I have never seen a list showing which weapons come from the south, and which were made at Bikaner.
When looking at your pictures it is interesting to see how many of the katars are chiselled but without any gold or silver decoration, and how many are undecorated.
The plate you show from Egerton shows different types of katars, but they all have the V-shaped base - it must have been fashion at the time.
Robert's book from Jaipur is out and for sale. Arms and Armour at the Jaipur Court. The Royal Collection. ISBN 978-93-83098-77-4.
The Jodhpur book showld be out later this year I have been told.
Jens

[Jens Nordlunde]

Ian,
Maybe someone on this forum can help you to find out which language it is http://forum.wordreference.com/forum...-languages.99/
Jens

[Emanuel]

Thank you Jens, I just ordered the book

For additional pictorial evidence, I suggest that everyone peruse the reproductions so helpfully made available on the Wikipedia media commons for a variety of Indian illustrated manuscripts.

The majority appear to me 16th century and later, but perhaps there are some earlier ones that may include depictions of jamadhars.

Emanuel

[Jens Nordlunde]

Emanuel,
You are right, that the miniatures are a very good source, but many of the early ones, if you can find them, dont show any weapons.
Like the very early travellers comming to India saw weapons they had never seen before, but they did not describe them, and they did not draw them - a pity.
The very early temples is a good place to start, as long as they were not ruined during the many wars between the HIndu's and the Muslim's.
In some cases you as a collector will have to make the choice, do you want the weapon, or do you want the book, which can give you an insight into how the world was at the time.
Jens

[Jim McDougall]

It is wonderful to see this thread advancing, and thanks Ian, Fernando and Emanuel for the great additions and images of iconography pertinent to our discussion.

Jens, I must be more careful in my wordings, as I know full well that the katar began in southern regions, I learned that from you many years ago so I must have misspoken suggesting Rajput origins. It does seem that the Rajputs along with the diffusion of these distinctive daggers throughout India, of course used them most notably, but not until 16th c.

Thank you again for responding on my ideas on the use of the carvings in monuments and temples, friezes etc. as benchmarks to establish the timeline for these weapons. It is indeed most unfortunate that so many have been destroyed or lost to natural deterioration, but it seems that the number of archaeological sites is considerable so there is still hope that something more will turn up. I know that you are always vigilant in watching for obscure resources and references with these........and hopefully as more of join in looking for these we might find key examples further,

Ibrahiim, thank you for adding the online data which often turns up in these searches. These references have of course a mixture of valid and pertinent data combined with some unspecified in source material, but all serves as a good benchmark toward comprehensive perspective on these studies.

The very innovative weapons such as firearms in edged weapons in India are fascinating , and follow these same kinds of combination arms which are often seen in European context. It seems these are in most cases more one off type weapons created to impress the noble and wealthy patrons of armourers, and not necessarily regularly produced and issued weapons.

Getting back to the katar, we seem to have exhausted most early sources and artistic representations in the Indian context, however the search goes on. Possibly other narratives from those in other cultures (we already have Arab accounts from ibn Battuta) such as Persian , Chinese or other might have observations or descriptions of these in early context.