Museum Nusantara

[Dajak]

There is an nice exebithion about the kris in here about mystiek and much more a lot off pusaka s can be see here that still have the power in them.


http://www.museum.nl/museumnl/handle...B-C4C70D36988B

So if you are in the Netherlands visit this one

Ben

[David]

Thanks for the link Ben. I don't suppose there is an English translation of this page. is there.
This raises an interesting question for me. We often hear people saying that this keris or that still has some "power" in it, but really that is such a vague thing to say. What exactly do we mean when we say such a thing? Not only what did it mean to the original owner of the keris, but what does it mean to us who now collect them? Is not the "power" of an old pusaka keris based on the strong link of family ties and the energy of cultural belief placed into them over the generations? What does it mean when that chain is broken? What actual "power" can a pusaka keris hold for the collector, especially if he is from outside of the culture? Can this "power" be accessed, and if so, what can it actually do?

[rasdan]

Hi David,

I can see u r really interested in this energy stuff for a long time. U must had studied something regarding this and I'm sure you yourself can access the "power" if its there. I'll just summarise what i know about the energy. I dont know much and if you already know this, i am sorry.

The energy is generated by entity(s) living in the keris. An paranormal can contact them even if they are dormant. It can be in any form; tiger, snake, scorpion, bird, balls of fire and human being etc., depending to their preference. Each has their own use fighting, charm, business etc. And of course they have different level of capability. When these entities are contacted and if they aggree to be your servant, they will perform their duties for you as long as u stick to your end of the bargain which is you have to feed them in form of smoke, fragranced oil, flowers, pop-corns (im serious) and some weird stuff like chickens liver and some.. prefers blood. Some can lift stuff physically..some can just lift paper and some could lift bulldozers. Most of them cant perform physical tasks.

For a collector, if your keris has it, you can still communicate with them. But with risks of course. If they didnt like you, they can do a lot of damage. Some are stored to protect their family chain, but you can still bargain. You dont have to own a keris to befriended with this entities. A keris is better because the entitiy follows the new owner if you wish to get rid of them.

How? You'll have to ask a paranormal. I dont know the procedure and i wont learn as it is against my faith.

[Dajak]

Hi David it is for me difficult to explain it in an foreign language but it s like this not every keris has it but a few in the netherlands are big collection s
I had over 300 myself had very good and very bad experience with it the problem with it is that it can get control over your life and if you can t stand it it take s over the control over you and it s not easy to get out the power is that you might get some favor s but it have always you have to give in return and that if you do some black magic with it think the evil always get back to you I if you use it for black magic you might get the things you do to other people you not get away with it and the kris need some sacrifice from you

if you have skype and you wanna know more I can tell you true story s that can be verified by people and books

Send it to me in an private mail and the time you can be reached ( if you want)

Ben

[Henk]

I've been there in the X-mas holiday. It is a great exhibition. I really enjoyed it. Even my wife liked it, although she liked the shopping after the visit of the museum more.

[David]

Originally Posted by Dajak

if you have skype and you wanna know more I can tell you true story s that can be verified by people and books

I guess i don't have skype because i don't know what it is.
To be clear, i do not doubt the metaphysical aspects of the keris, it is what got me so interested to begin with. Metaphysics has been a study of mine much longer than the keris. I have learned over the years, however, to keep an open yet skeptical mind. Stories "verified" by people and books are still very subjective in nature. They do not display empirical fact. Events that seem very real to one person may in fact have alternative explanations. Stories are also embellished and exaggerated sometimes. It is just our human nature. This does not cause me to disbelieve, only to search further.
I remain even more skeptical of those who set themselves up as "paranormals" who are capable of sensing these powers within the keris when others cannot. If you can't feel and/or access this power yourself what possible good can it be to you? Within any culture with such a magickal/mystical world view as this the likelihood of chalatans taking advantage of hopeful people is magnified 100 times. How many of these "paranormals" will assess the "power" of your keris for free? Again, i don't say this because i doubt the existence of such power. It is just that there will always be individuals ready and willing to take advantage of such belief.
Ben, if you have stories i would encourage you to share them here. That was my purpose in raising these questions, to bring them into a community discussion. I see no reason to swap such stories in private emails.
Frankly, to me the reported powers of the keris seem a bit all over the board. I have a feeling that the original intention was something far more specific. In any discussion of the metaphysical there is bound to be superstition and fairytales thrown into the mix. Some stories i believe are merely legend, other's rooted more in fact. If indeed there are or were keris capable of lifting a bulldozer for instance one would have to wonder just how the Dutch managed to actually take control of the area with mere guns and cannons.
The way you describe this magickal relationship Ben it seems really hard to understand it within the context of a strictly Islamic society (albeit one that has kept and incorporated remnants of it animistic past). But how does making deals with enities within a keris for material favors sit with Allah and one's faith in Islam? As you say, it sounds like black magick to me. I don't think this was the original intent of the spiritual nature of the keris.

[rasdan]

Originally Posted by David

Some stories i believe are merely legend, other's rooted more in fact. If indeed there are or were keris capable of lifting a bulldozer for instance one would have to wonder just how the Dutch managed to actually take control of the area with mere guns and cannons.

Bulldozers story is true. But very rare and theres something about these creatures that it wont help you when you are dying like when a foreigner points a canon at you . Their objective is only to make trouble. Their service is just a disguise. When u got trouble and dies or gets the country colonised (anything bad) the objective is achieved. Thats why im not interested in them. Im not trying to get your attention nechesh, i know u want to know.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by rasdan

Im not trying to get your attention nechesh, i know u wnat to know and .... hehehe

Sounds to me like you are and you're razzing him about it .

[rasdan]

Opps sorry rick. I edited the comment earlier and i didnt realise i didnt delete the word "and". Probably makes my comments sounds razzing. Sorry.. Deleted already.

[Rick]

Thanks Rasdan .

Best,
Rick

[rasdan]

You're welcome Rick..

[David]

Originally Posted by rasdan

Their objective is only to make trouble. Their service is just a disguise.

Sorry Rasdan, but i am afraid that many people might make serious objection to these comments. Are you really saying that what lies at the spiritual heart of the keris, the power and entity that is embued into it by the empu at the time of forging, the life of the blade, is only there to make trouble?

[Dajak]

Hi David you might be better reading some books about the subject
there is more than only Islam or Christian things hard to understand if you never get in to it that why I don t write a lot about what happend to me and others.

If you use magic for good things it is white magic if you use it for bad things black magic.

Even in the Islam there is something like the devil


Ben

[rasdan]

Hi David,

Not all, but almost all will try divert your your faith and relationship with God away. For example, muslims normally reads a few passages or sentances from the Quran for the sake of God. Now, after the person had made aggreement with the entities, they will ask the owner to recite a few sentances; for instance when the owner is in trouble. This is actually will make your heart split into 2. One is to recite for god and the other is to recite for them. They want to share God's place in your heart. To a muslim this is a serious offence. On the other hand, they will also ask for ridiculous stuff when you ask for extra service/power. They will even ask for your wife. A long lost friend of mine had given his. Of course not all will ask for Quran recitation some will ask for mantras etc. Depending on your and their religion.

There are also normal entities that didnt cause trouble. But these are weak and almost of no use. They'll run away the moment they see the other guy you are fighting had a stronger one.

The nice/white ones David are rare and are normally use for charms and business purposes. But still, this type will also try to divert your faith. You must study the impact of their demands very very skillfully. They are really cunning.

[David]

Originally Posted by Dajak

Hi David you might be better reading some books about the subject
there is more than only Islam or Christian things hard to understand if you never get in to it that why I don t write a lot about what happend to me and others.
If you use magic for good things it is white magic if you use it for bad things black magic.
Even in the Islam there is something like the devil
Ben

hmmm, interesting assumption Ben, that i haven't read any books on the subject...are there any English language books you might recommend?
I am well aware that there is more than only Islamic or Christian (or even Hindu) things and would be quite capable of understanding what may have happened to you or others if you were to share that information. The personal experience of you and others on this forum is something i am not likely to find in any books which is partly why i am raising these questions, to hear and try to understand what people here think.
I also tend to see the differences between white and black magick as a bit more complicated than you describe.
So Rasdan, if i understand you correctly you don't believe that the traditions of the keris are in keeping with service to God? Where do you believe the entities within "living" keris come from? Who do they "work" for?

[Dajak]

Hi David white magic is something like you use the power off the keris to make a sick person better , black magic you wanna make your enemy sick ( I now a person that is already death seeing doing this with an neighbour that did make some troubele with him he told and showed me how he did it with his favorit keris after he passed away his wife wanted me to geve the keris but I refused ) .

The best thing is the same advice Rasdan have don t try to get involved with those things not every one can handel these things
It don t have to be a keris it can be an mask an wayang puppet an spear
everything they can put an sole (don t now if this is the right translation off the worth) in it .

I don t now if there are english books about the subject Dutch a lot
there are even Dutch movie s about things that happend the call the silent power (Dutch name de stille kracht maybe also availble with enghlish language ) or an movie called the keris Pusaka based on true stories

An nice book called goena goena written by Helene Weski maybe availble in English

I have an pua from Borneo they used that when the Iban came back with heads to put them in there was an person at my house who is sensitive for things like that he get chicken skin and was shaking everytime he walk on the stairs where the pua was hanging

Ben

[rasdan]

Originally Posted by David

So Rasdan, if i understand you correctly you don't believe that the traditions of the keris are in keeping with service to God? Where do you believe the entities within "living" keris come from? Who do they "work" for?

What i said is the pre-islamic beliefs and practice. When Islam came, these beliefs was changed and empus starts inserting prayers into the blade. For instance, the pendawa lima is purely mythical characters before islam, when islam came, this 5 characters are said to represent the 5 pillars of Islam. The walis didnt want to take everything away from the Javanese people. They change the concept so that it suits Islamic needs. I assume this is also the case with keris. I think this is the turning point of the belalai gajah (perhaps representing Ganesha) starts to be called kembang kacang. And this is perhaps where the concept of a keris not being a weapon and the idea of Islamic phylosophy on keris parts started. I think belalai gajah is representing Ganesha since Buddha keris didnt have one. (Just my opinion with my limited knowledge)

However not all empu inserted just prayers. A lot (not nescessarily empus) still practice pre-islamic rituals until today. If you had a newly made keris, u can also put these entities in it. Thats why collectors who bought keris relying on vibrations can sometimes got cheated. They will age the keris to a certain tangguh and put entities that will transmit vibrations the new owner that they are from that tangguh. So, no way to run for collectors. Ultimately its our inteligence that beats everything. Afterall thats what differentiates us from these entities and animals.

Some remarks about the invading Dutch. I think the objective of negative entities are to make fellow countrymen killed each other or just cause fights and havoc. They are not interested helping you fighting a real war. Take puputan for an example. By the way, the Dutch had local allies that will reveal the tricks how to beat the entities.

I had talked too much about this and had received a warning. I'm sorry guys. i cant explain more than this.

[David]

Originally Posted by rasdan

What i said is the pre-islamic beliefs and practice. When Islam came, these beliefs was changed and empus starts inserting prayers into the blade.

I had talked too much about this and had received a warning. I'm sorry guys. i cant explain more than this.

Rasdan, your comments so far have been helpful, but i am not trying to keep you personally (or anyone for that matter) in this discussion. If you feel you can't talk about these things, if you are feeling threadened, what ever, please feel free to drop out of the discussion. This will not, however, stop my own inquiry. Knowledge is power. Fear is failure.
I was not aware that you were only speaking of pre-Islamic beliefs and practices when discussing powerful keris. I have assumed that there are also many empu made keris or other pusaka that have been made in the Islamic tradition that are also considered to have "power". Islam has been the driving religious force in Indonesia for a fairly long time. Certainly i am aware that elements of the old world animistic pardigm still exist and that certain practices have remained, even if not quite out in the open.

Ben, thanks for your book suggestions. I will see if the title you recommend comes in English translation. Just so you understand, i have already read quite a lot on various magickal practices around the world, including books on Malay magickal practices. "Malay Magic" by Skeat and "The Malay Magician" by Winsedt provide some good information on magick in the Malay states. I am finding it difficult to find anything specifically of Jawa. "Visible and Invisible Realms" by Weiner and "Sekala and Niskala" by Eisman both give some interesting perspective into various practices on the mostly Hindu Bali.
Personally i would define white magick only as magick that is done in the service of the Creator. Black magick is anything that is done in the service of self. But there are many shades of gray here as well.
I am afraid that your suggestion that i leave this subject alone because not everyone can handle it is not acceptable to me. I appreciate you comments so far, but no one is holding you to this discussion. If it makes you feel uncomfortable i understand why you might not want to participate. As i stated before, my study of magick and it's practices around the world goes back far beyond my study of the keris. No one gains anything not discussing these matters. Superstitions, misunderstandings and fear only grow in our silences.

[Dajak]

Hi David I am just warning what can happend to someone everyone is free to do what he like s

Ben

[rasdan]

Just to make things clear; or perhaps i misunderstood what had been written, the warning is not from Dajak. I highly appreciate Dajak's comment.

[A. G. Maisey]

I've just read through this thread from beginning to end.

I've decided not to contribute my opinions to this discussion, and after this post I will not be drawn. This post will probably be long and maybe a bit rambling, and at its conclusion there will be no answers, so if you're easily bored, click out now and forget what I will write.

When I was 18 years old I was involved as a frequent visitor to a remote NSW country town. This was Australia, 1950's. The group of people I used to visit this town with formed a close association with the Kooris (Australian Aboriginals) living at the local mission station. I formed close friendships with a couple of these Koori people. The brother of one of the girls I knew there had transgressed tribal law, and the decision was taken to sing him. This is commonly known as "pointing the bone". He initially laughed it off and said that the old people couldn't touch him because he was modern and didn't believe in all that b/s. However, he did get sick, he went into hospital, they couldn't find anything wrong with him, he was transferred to a bigger hospital down on the coast. Some time after I got home I heard he had died.

I have been playing with keris for a very long time. I don't know how many keris I've had through my hands. I do know that it exceeds 5000. I also know that during my entire life I cannot associate either one fortunate event, or one unfortunate event with any keris.

Since I have been visiting Jawa I have been given a number of keris. I think that at the moment it totals 12 keris and tombak. The first one I was ever given was given to me simply because the owner liked me and could not be bothered looking after the keris. Subsequent events that affected the life of this man have caused a number of people to identify him giving me this keris, which was in fact his family keris, as the turning point in his life from being more or less fortunate to being more than a little unfortunate. Maybe the keris caused this. Or maybe his nature caused it. Believe what you will.

Other keris and tombak have been given to me for similar reasons, that is, that the owners simply did not want the responsibility of looking after them.
However a number of keris have come to me for blacker reasons.
I have three keris that I accepted that were associated with death and misfortune. One in particular was reputed to have caused the deaths of at least 5 people, and the people who knew of it would not even touch it. When I accepted it I had to go a shed at the back of the house and remove it from under a pile of offerings that had been made by various dukuns.

Now, none of these keris, no keris I have ever had in my possession has ever given me any bad feelings, nor raised hairs on the back of my neck, nor caused any mental disquiet.
On the other hand, a number of keris I have had in my possession have given me feelings of warmth and comfort and ease of mind. Any feeling I have ever had from any keris has only been a feeling of peace, not of disquiet.
And this includes a couple of keris that I have that two paranormals identified as being "evil".

I have come to the conclusion that any evil, any good, any power or force that may be ---or may not be--- associated with any keris is absolutely and purely dependent upon the the human being involved, not upon the keris.

I have heard an enormous number of keris stories, and even if only 1% of these stories were true, I think I would have to accept that in some cases, something happens that cannot be explained rationally.But nothing like this has ever happened with me.

Now, coming back to Koori beliefs.
A few years after my friend's brother died as a consequence of being sung, I met a man who had also been sung. This man had done something the tribal elders had decided could not go unpunished, so the decision was take to sing him. The difference this time was that the man who was sung had no Koori blood, but was of pure European descent. When he heard that he was being sung all he did was laugh at the "ignorant blackfellers" ( his words, not mine), and he felt no effect at all.I heard that he died a couple of years ago, he was in his nineties.

Possibly there is no "one size fits all" answer to this matter.
Some people believe. Some people do not believe. Some people cite various "evidence" others destroy that evidence with logic. But if a person believes something, for that person, that something is real. If it is real, then just as with any other real thing, it can affect the person who believes that it is real. Similarly, if there is a deep seated aversion to something buried in a person's psyche, or in a group psyche, then this can affect the person and the group. However, if the individual is in balance, and not closed to any forces, those negative forces simply flow around or through a person, and do not find a place to dwell. The individual who is at peace with all that is around him has nothing to fear from any forces or entities that may---or may not---exist.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Possibly there is no "one size fits all" answer to this matter.
Some people believe. Some people do not believe. Some people cite various "evidence" others destroy that evidence with logic. But if a person believes something, for that person, that something is real. If it is real, then just as with any other real thing, it can affect the person who believes that it is real. Similarly, if there is a deep seated aversion to something buried in a person's psyche, or in a group psyche, then this can affect the person and the group. However, if the individual is in balance, and not closed to any forces, those negative forces simply flow around or through a person, and do not find a place to dwell. The individual who is at peace with all that is around him has nothing to fear from any forces or entities that may---or may not---exist.

Very well said Alan, i think i am in 100% agreement with you. I have not handled anywhere near as many keris as you have. So far i have had very much the same experience though and i have never met a keris that i didn't like or thought was intrinsicly "evil". I am of the mind that certain keris are most definitely "alive", but my feeling is that the power involved is a neutral one. In other words, "Keris don't kill, people do!"
Every keris that comes into my possession, regardless of whether i sense any power from it or not or whether it is old or recently made is cleansed, feed and ritually dedicated to the path of service in the "geat work" to the creator. So far i have had no complaints from the keris.

[Dajak]

Well there is an keris in the Netherlands that break down your car

This can be verified if it have to be

So I am not agree with you A.G. Maisey you based upon what your expirience are not what happend to other people based on true story s

And take my word for it if the keris don t like you he can make you sick or let you die even if you don t believe in it .

This has happend for real it is no funny story it is sad that some difficult are believing this

that s why most people don t tell story s what happend to them and not talk about the subject

But see if you can get books translated from H.W.M.J. Rijnders

Stille krachten van de kris

Geloven in bijgeloof


Ben

[David]

Ben, i think if you carefully reread what both Mr. Maisey and myself are saying you will see that neither of us necessarily disbelieve that these events can and do occur, nor do either of us find any of these events particularly funny. My question was not whether or not these things happen. Rather i am trying to get at the nature of the power and study just why it might have a effect on some people and not on others. Still, it seems to me that you are making these powers out to be somewhat omnipotent. I personally believe that these powers can, in fact must, serve a higher source. And if, as you say, a keris doesn't like me and makes me sick (which would seem odd to me since i care for it and feed it, therefore maintaining it's life) i always have the power to break it in pieces and throw it in the river or feed it back to the forge. I believe i am in essence more powerful than the keris. Now, if a keris is being used as a tool of black magick by another person against me that is another issue that would require a different approach. Then i am not just battling the will of the keris (if infact it has any), but the will of the other person as well. He may, in fact, be more powerful than i, but not his keris.

[Dajak]

Hi David sorry for misunderstanding you but don t forget that the other person when he have an high keris that have been trough strong persons hands
that keris may have more power than you think ever heard about an blood keris

Ben

[A. G. Maisey]

Ben, I said I would not be drawn into discussion of this matter, and I will not be.

Each of us is entitled to his own beliefs, and I totally endorse your right to your beliefs.

My own beliefs I have no intention of parading for public view, but these beliefs have been formed over a more than a 50 year period of association with Javanese society and culture. I have had close personal contact with Javanese society for 40 years; my wife of more than 30 years is from Jawa, similarly, my wife does have some paranormal powers and within a certain group of people is recognised as a medium and a distant viewer. I number amongst my close friends in Jawa three people who are recognised as empu, or pandai keris (although now retired), and I was Empu Suparman's student for many years.Additionally I know personally several people who are recognised dukuns. The elder brother of my housekeeper in Solo is able to transform himself into a tiger---at least in the eyes of other Javanese people.

Ben, I am buried up to the eyeballs in Javanese society, and Javanese paranormal belief.Upon this experience I have formed certain conclusions. I do not think I need to read any books about second hand experiences. I already have the first hand experiences.

But I will not discuss or debate any of this. We are all free to believe what we will.

[Dajak]

We Never to old to learn


Ben

[A. G. Maisey]

So true Ben, so very true.

[Amuk Murugul]

Punten...
Wilujeng sumadaya.

Hello everybody

Hmmmmm .... very interesting...

Ben, I guess you know then that hundreds of keris ( tourist or otherwise) are brought in to museums around the Netherlands by their owners who no longer feel comfortable having them.
BTW... have you read the novel De Stille Kracht?

Regarding paranormal/supernatural events .. aside from personal experience, I have had personal accounts from people as diverse as a Roman Catholic priest to a Muslim Kiyayi Haji. This does NOT ignore the many CHARLATANS.

Truth CAN be stranger than fiction.

However, the bottom line is: Everybody can believe what they like ...
in most cases anyway.

Regards.

Sampurna rasa ingsun.
Amit mundur ...

[David]

I will take your statement one step further Amuk Murugul. You say "Everyone can believe what they like", but it is more that everyone does believe what they like. Belief is a very powerful thing which is key to shaping our own personal realities. And to a certain extent i believe that we each live within our own specific realities. Much of these personal realities overlap, but there will always be aspects of mine that don't work in yours and vice versa. I could discribe magickal events that have taken place in my life that most people would dismiss as fantasy. But as you say, "truth" CAN be stranger than fiction.

Originally Posted by Dajak

Well there is an keris in the Netherlands that break down your car
This can be verified if it have to be

It is interesting that most if not all of the stories we have heard here in regards to powerful keris ("evil" or otherwise) have been second and third hand accounts. And the details of these accounts have been very vague. I wonder if anyone here has any personal stories they might wish to share. As for verification Ben, i am curious how you can verify this car story or any other in this realm of experience. I don't say this to dismiss these stories out of hand, but merely to point out that these are all part of various people's personal realities. I have serious doubts that anyone can back up any of these stories with empirical proof. That doesn't necessarily mean they aren't "true". If you can prove it i happen to know that a guy who calls himself The Amazing Randi has got a million dollar prize for you. James Randi is a stage magician and escape artist who is offerring the prize to anyone whop can prove metapyshical phenomenon.