Translation Assistance Requested for Kaskara Hilt

laEspadaAncha · 9th February 2011, 11:15 PM

I long ago lost track of how many sharp and pointy objects have come - and gone - through my hands over the years, but this is my first kaskara.

The sword measures a little over 27 inches / 69 cm overall with a 22.5 inch / 57 cm blade that measures 1.125 inches in width. Both sides of the (rather sharp) blade are covered in thuluth script, but one side of the grip also has something written in Arabic that doesn't as wildly stylized as the thuluth script on the blade, which I am humbly hoping someone may be able to translate.

I have attached several photos below, including a photo of the reverse side of the cylindrical grip that is covered in a nicely executed design.

A.alnakkas · 9th February 2011, 11:33 PM

I can read one word: العدل which means Justice. Though i would like to point out that am lousy at translating Thuluth + persian inscription.

laEspadaAncha · 9th February 2011, 11:50 PM

Hello Abdullatif,

I remember your introductory thread in December in which you offered your assistance in translating Arabic, and I kindly thank you for your assistance in this thread.

In your opinion, is there more to the hilt inscription than the one word you were able to decipher? I ask as when I enlarge the word for "justice," it would seem to my untrained eye there are other characters still unaccounted for on the hilt.

Lastly, if re-orienting the image (by rotating or inverting it) or taking additional photographs might assist in your efforts, I would happily oblige.

Thank you once again...

Regards,

Chris

DaveS · 10th February 2011, 03:46 AM

My eyes might be deceiving me but is that an ivory handle? It looks like
an age crack in one of the pictures similar to an ivory crack.......Dave.

laEspadaAncha · 10th February 2011, 05:09 AM

Hi Dave,

I wish it was made of ivory.

While not absolutely certain, I am fairly confident it is made of bone... Not only is there no visible (cross-hatched) grain, but there is what appears to be visible (Haversian system) streaking on the undecorated areas of the handle.

Regards,

Chris

A.alnakkas · 10th February 2011, 07:33 AM

Hey

Yes please do rotate it, the word is followed by another letter which i think in a normal script.. it means that it will be followed by the word on top. A zoom on the top word and the letter following Justice will be nice.

Wonderful piece btw

laEspadaAncha · 10th February 2011, 07:15 PM

Hi Abdullatif,

Thank you for the kind words. I have attached below two images, one of the character following "Justice," and another of the word above it. Thanks again for your assistance.

DaveS · 10th February 2011, 09:43 PM

Chris: Yes, looking at it again it probably is bone. Even so, with all the many
kaskaras iv'e seen this is the first that i have seen done in bone, ivory, or
whatever. That sets this sword off as special, at least to me anyway..Dave.

A.alnakkas · 11th February 2011, 01:44 AM

hmm it says : العدل و سد. means: Justice and ???. the second word is "Sad" which means something that blocks. Makes no sense

DaveS · 11th February 2011, 03:40 AM

Chris: Thinking about it again i seem to recall years ago that in one of Fagans
catalogues there was a kaskara with a bone handle. For all we know, this
might be the same one, as some of these pieces do seem to travel around
between collectors..........Dave.

laEspadaAncha · 11th February 2011, 04:00 AM

Hello Dave,

Interesting indeed. I have had an eye out for one for some time, and after reading a fascinating thread here last year (and in particular the contributions by Jim, Tim, and Iain), have been hoping and waiting for one covered in thuluth script (Khartoum is one of my all-time favorite movies). However, luck had not prevailed until this one more-or-less fell into my lap this last month.

It would truly be fortunate to hear form someone who has the catalog in which you seem to recall a similar (or same?) bone-handled kaskara, who could either confirm it is the same one or post pictures of it for comparison.

*****

Abdullatif - Thank you once again for your assistance in translating the inscription. When you say that the contextual use of "sad" refers to "something that blocks," do you mean in the literal sense, or in a more metaphorical sense, i.e., it reverses the meaning of the word or words with which it appears?

Can you think of a loose translation in which "Sad" - or as you state - "something that blocks" along with "Justice" might make sense? Maybe it's a colloquial usage?

*****

Regards,

Chris

A.alnakkas · 11th February 2011, 08:48 AM

Hey Dave,

I have been thinking of this all day. Nope, still makes no sense. I'll check around maybe someone will know a connection between the two.

It could be related to Sudanese accent which in that case, i can offer little assistance.

laEspadaAncha · 12th February 2011, 05:21 AM

I hope the title didn't exclude the VS community at large from commenting on the kaskara. I am looking forward to - and asking for - input from others regarding the sword...

In particular, given the thuluth script, would you consider this to be a Mahdist era exmaple? To what part of the Sudan would you attribute this?

Regards,

Chris

DaveS · 12th February 2011, 06:21 AM

Chris: I looked high and low for those old catalogues. Haven't been able to
find them yet. But i'm sure i did see a kaskara in one of Fagans old books
that had a bone handle. But i will keep looking. You've got my curiosity up.
Dave.

laEspadaAncha · 12th February 2011, 05:54 PM

Hi Dave,

Thank you for searching nonetheless.

Any thoughts or estimations regarding age and/or particular area of attribution? I assume it's Sudanese, but am of the understanding there is some degree of variability in form from region to region.

Regards,

Chris

Dom · 8th January 2013, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Hey Dave,

I have been thinking of this all day. Nope, still makes no sense. I'll check around maybe someone will know a connection between the two.

It could be related to Sudanese accent which in that case, i can offer little assistance.

I come to rescue ... my Bro. Abdallatif

Lotfi, you're correct when you're mentioning
"still makes no sense"
Taghrid has got the translation;
"ASSAD" either "LION" and "EL ADGLE" either "THE JUSTICE"

the problem is ... there is no meaning

- it's a "literal translation", and not the translation of the meaning
- it's cant be a name
- Taghrid suggest that a part of the script is missing

à +

Dom

laEspadaAncha · 8th January 2013, 01:48 AM

Hello Dom,

Thank you for asking your 'other half' to have a look...

This is the same translation as provided by a friend of mine some time after starting this thread. Unfortunately, I can find no contextual reference to whom this may have been in reference to, though I hope it might be of some use to Mefidk in his efforts to research the origin of the thuluth-covered kaskaras.

Cheers,

Chris

9th February 2011, 11:15 PM	#1
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Translation Assistance Requested for Kaskara Hilt I long ago lost track of how many sharp and pointy objects have come - and gone - through my hands over the years, but this is my first kaskara. The sword measures a little over 27 inches / 69 cm overall with a 22.5 inch / 57 cm blade that measures 1.125 inches in width. Both sides of the (rather sharp) blade are covered in thuluth script, but one side of the grip also has something written in Arabic that doesn't as wildly stylized as the thuluth script on the blade, which I am humbly hoping someone may be able to translate. I have attached several photos below, including a photo of the reverse side of the cylindrical grip that is covered in a nicely executed design.

12th February 2011, 06:21 AM	#14
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	kaskara handle Chris: I looked high and low for those old catalogues. Haven't been able to find them yet. But i'm sure i did see a kaskara in one of Fagans old books that had a bone handle. But i will keep looking. You've got my curiosity up. Dave.

9th February 2011, 11:33 PM	#2
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	I can read one word: العدل which means Justice. Though i would like to point out that am lousy at translating Thuluth + persian inscription.

9th February 2011, 11:50 PM	#3
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hello Abdullatif, I remember your introductory thread in December in which you offered your assistance in translating Arabic, and I kindly thank you for your assistance in this thread. In your opinion, is there more to the hilt inscription than the one word you were able to decipher? I ask as when I enlarge the word for "justice," it would seem to my untrained eye there are other characters still unaccounted for on the hilt. Lastly, if re-orienting the image (by rotating or inverting it) or taking additional photographs might assist in your efforts, I would happily oblige. Thank you once again... Regards, Chris

10th February 2011, 03:46 AM	#4
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	My eyes might be deceiving me but is that an ivory handle? It looks like an age crack in one of the pictures similar to an ivory crack.......Dave.

10th February 2011, 05:09 AM	#5
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi Dave, I wish it was made of ivory. While not absolutely certain, I am fairly confident it is made of bone... Not only is there no visible (cross-hatched) grain, but there is what appears to be visible (Haversian system) streaking on the undecorated areas of the handle. Regards, Chris

10th February 2011, 07:33 AM	#6
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Hey Yes please do rotate it, the word is followed by another letter which i think in a normal script.. it means that it will be followed by the word on top. A zoom on the top word and the letter following Justice will be nice. Wonderful piece btw

10th February 2011, 07:15 PM	#7
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi Abdullatif, Thank you for the kind words. I have attached below two images, one of the character following "Justice," and another of the word above it. Thanks again for your assistance.

10th February 2011, 09:43 PM	#8
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	Chris: Yes, looking at it again it probably is bone. Even so, with all the many kaskaras iv'e seen this is the first that i have seen done in bone, ivory, or whatever. That sets this sword off as special, at least to me anyway..Dave.

11th February 2011, 01:44 AM	#9
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	hmm it says : العدل و سد. means: Justice and ???. the second word is "Sad" which means something that blocks. Makes no sense

11th February 2011, 03:40 AM	#10
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	Chris: Thinking about it again i seem to recall years ago that in one of Fagans catalogues there was a kaskara with a bone handle. For all we know, this might be the same one, as some of these pieces do seem to travel around between collectors..........Dave.

11th February 2011, 04:00 AM	#11
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hello Dave, Interesting indeed. I have had an eye out for one for some time, and after reading a fascinating thread here last year (and in particular the contributions by Jim, Tim, and Iain), have been hoping and waiting for one covered in thuluth script (Khartoum is one of my all-time favorite movies). However, luck had not prevailed until this one more-or-less fell into my lap this last month. It would truly be fortunate to hear form someone who has the catalog in which you seem to recall a similar (or same?) bone-handled kaskara, who could either confirm it is the same one or post pictures of it for comparison. *** Abdullatif - Thank you once again for your assistance in translating the inscription. When you say that the contextual use of "sad" refers to "something that blocks," do you mean in the literal sense, or in a more metaphorical sense, i.e., it reverses the meaning of the word or words with which it appears? Can you think of a loose translation in which "Sad" - or as you state - "something that blocks" along with "Justice" might make sense? Maybe it's a colloquial usage? *** Regards, Chris

11th February 2011, 08:48 AM	#12
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Hey Dave, I have been thinking of this all day. Nope, still makes no sense. I'll check around maybe someone will know a connection between the two. It could be related to Sudanese accent which in that case, i can offer little assistance.

12th February 2011, 05:21 AM	#13
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	I hope the title didn't exclude the VS community at large from commenting on the kaskara. I am looking forward to - and asking for - input from others regarding the sword... In particular, given the thuluth script, would you consider this to be a Mahdist era exmaple? To what part of the Sudan would you attribute this? Regards, Chris

12th February 2011, 05:54 PM	#15
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi Dave, Thank you for searching nonetheless. Any thoughts or estimations regarding age and/or particular area of attribution? I assume it's Sudanese, but am of the understanding there is some degree of variability in form from region to region. Regards, Chris

8th January 2013, 01:48 AM	#17
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hello Dom, Thank you for asking your 'other half' to have a look... This is the same translation as provided by a friend of mine some time after starting this thread. Unfortunately, I can find no contextual reference to whom this may have been in reference to, though I hope it might be of some use to Mefidk in his efforts to research the origin of the thuluth-covered kaskaras. Cheers, Chris