new sword

galvano · 2nd December 2007, 06:01 PM

Hello all.
My new sword.
Which is its origin?
I am not sure that it is Indian.
I await your enlightened opinion.
Thank you in advance.
Galvano.

Jim McDougall · 2nd December 2007, 07:02 PM

It is indeed from India, and if anyone having a copy of Pant would check, there is I believe a distinct term for hilts with this theme with the rams head. The serrated blade is also of Indian form, the sword would be considered tulwar with Persian form hilt and is likely 19th century, from appearance in the photos. As always, difficult to say for certain without handling.
Nice sabre Galvano!
Best regards,
Jim

galvano · 2nd December 2007, 08:32 PM

Thank you Jim for your fast answer.
But would somebody have it photographs of handle of this kind?
I guess, on the blade the remainders of koftgari.
But one does not see on the photographs.
all the best
galvano

drauhtinon · 4th December 2007, 02:58 PM

Just curious, what exactly is the purpose of the serrated blade like that in melee combat? Against flesh perhaps it's useful and the wound would've been gruesome, but what about armor? Wouldn't it lodged on thick waxed leather?

Jim McDougall · 10th December 2007, 04:46 AM

Interesting question on the serrated edge on this sabre, and again there are specific terms that describe blades that are serrated on one side or both (in Pant) but since I no longer have the book handy I must defer on reference to someone who does. I did find a reference from Pant in previous notes regarding these serrations, "...it is said that these swords were used against armour, but since these were not found very suitable by the soldiers, abandoned in the late 17th century". (Pant. pp.56-57).

While the serration on a cutting surface may well accent its cutting action, it seems odd that it would be on the back of a sabre as well, since that part of the blade would not be used.

According to E.Jaiwent Paul, ("Arms and Armour: Traditional Weapons of India", pp.139,140) the rams head hilt was used on edged weapons from Rajasthan (Jaipur) in the late 17th century and was apparantly a popular theme on both daggers and sabres hilts into the 18th century.

This of course suggests this sabre is a Rajput weapon, as the ram is key in Hindu mythology as the mount of Agni, the Hindu god of fire. In the complex lineage of the Rajputs, one of the three basic lines (of a total 36 clans) is that of Agnivanshi (vansha= lineage).

Returning to the serration on the blade, Rajputs disdained using the tip of the sword in combat, emphasizing the importance of slashing cuts.

The suggestion from these findings is of course that this sabre is certainly of a vintage form, but difficult to determine age without actual handling and close examination. In any case, a very attractive and desirable sabre!

All best regards,
Jim

sandeepsingh · 11th December 2007, 04:31 PM

The sword seems interesting.
Is the blade of sword is wootz or damascus???
can you provide detail pic of hilt and blade fitting portion?

S.Al-Anizi · 11th December 2007, 04:50 PM

Hi All,

havent you guys noticed that at the blade's CP, there is no serration?!

Andrew · 11th December 2007, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.Al-Anizi

Hi All,

havent you guys noticed that at the blade's CP, there is no serration?!

Look who the cat dragged in!

S.Al-Anizi · 13th December 2007, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

Look who the cat dragged in!

Lew · 13th December 2007, 03:57 PM

Hi S.Al-Anizi

Nice to see you again

The tulwar in question seems to have had the serrations added as an after thought.

Lew

S.Al-Anizi · 15th December 2007, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Hi S.Al-Anizi

Nice to see you again

The tulwar in question seems to have had the serrations added as an after thought.

Lew

Thanks lew

Jim McDougall · 16th December 2007, 05:35 AM

S.Al-Anizi, it is indeed good to see you again, and very astute that you noticed the section of blade non-serrated. I saw another tulwar with the standard disc pommel hilt mounted with this type of blade, serrated in exactly the same manner with the section unserrated in the same place. Seems to have been an affectation at least somewhat regularly used.

All best regards,
Jim

2nd December 2007, 06:01 PM	#1
galvano Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 178	new sword Hello all. My new sword. Which is its origin? I am not sure that it is Indian. I await your enlightened opinion. Thank you in advance. Galvano. Attached Images

2nd December 2007, 08:32 PM	#3
galvano Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 178	thanks Thank you Jim for your fast answer. But would somebody have it photographs of handle of this kind? I guess, on the blade the remainders of koftgari. But one does not see on the photographs. all the best galvano

2nd December 2007, 07:02 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,955	It is indeed from India, and if anyone having a copy of Pant would check, there is I believe a distinct term for hilts with this theme with the rams head. The serrated blade is also of Indian form, the sword would be considered tulwar with Persian form hilt and is likely 19th century, from appearance in the photos. As always, difficult to say for certain without handling. Nice sabre Galvano! Best regards, Jim

4th December 2007, 02:58 PM	#4
drauhtinon Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 2	Just curious, what exactly is the purpose of the serrated blade like that in melee combat? Against flesh perhaps it's useful and the wound would've been gruesome, but what about armor? Wouldn't it lodged on thick waxed leather?

10th December 2007, 04:46 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,955	Interesting question on the serrated edge on this sabre, and again there are specific terms that describe blades that are serrated on one side or both (in Pant) but since I no longer have the book handy I must defer on reference to someone who does. I did find a reference from Pant in previous notes regarding these serrations, "...it is said that these swords were used against armour, but since these were not found very suitable by the soldiers, abandoned in the late 17th century". (Pant. pp.56-57). While the serration on a cutting surface may well accent its cutting action, it seems odd that it would be on the back of a sabre as well, since that part of the blade would not be used. According to E.Jaiwent Paul, ("Arms and Armour: Traditional Weapons of India", pp.139,140) the rams head hilt was used on edged weapons from Rajasthan (Jaipur) in the late 17th century and was apparantly a popular theme on both daggers and sabres hilts into the 18th century. This of course suggests this sabre is a Rajput weapon, as the ram is key in Hindu mythology as the mount of Agni, the Hindu god of fire. In the complex lineage of the Rajputs, one of the three basic lines (of a total 36 clans) is that of Agnivanshi (vansha= lineage). Returning to the serration on the blade, Rajputs disdained using the tip of the sword in combat, emphasizing the importance of slashing cuts. The suggestion from these findings is of course that this sabre is certainly of a vintage form, but difficult to determine age without actual handling and close examination. In any case, a very attractive and desirable sabre! All best regards, Jim

11th December 2007, 04:31 PM	#6
sandeepsingh Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: India Posts: 85	The sword seems interesting. Is the blade of sword is wootz or damascus??? can you provide detail pic of hilt and blade fitting portion?

11th December 2007, 04:50 PM	#7
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	Hi All, havent you guys noticed that at the blade's CP, there is no serration?!

13th December 2007, 03:57 PM	#10
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Hi S.Al-Anizi Nice to see you again The tulwar in question seems to have had the serrations added as an after thought. Lew

16th December 2007, 05:35 AM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,955	S.Al-Anizi, it is indeed good to see you again, and very astute that you noticed the section of blade non-serrated. I saw another tulwar with the standard disc pommel hilt mounted with this type of blade, serrated in exactly the same manner with the section unserrated in the same place. Seems to have been an affectation at least somewhat regularly used. All best regards, Jim