Need Help Identifying an antique firearm

aptheo · 11th July 2013, 10:10 PM

Hello all,

I am a new member, and this is my first post. I have been trying to identify an old gun for some time now, and although I have a degree in history, I am in no way an expert on firearms history. The gun was attributed as a "flintlock ball and cap type blunderbuss" of Spanish origin that is missing the lock, trigger, and stock. When I saw the gun, I doubted that assessment, because there does no appear to have been a flint lock ever attached, and there is no place for a trigger either. I think that it is probably a matchlock. I can't tell if it is a Spanish Blunderbuss (Trabuco) or not, and there are no maker's marks or any other distinguishing marks on the gun. The muzzle has a diameter of about 3/4", or 1 and 9/10 cm. Any help in identifying this old weapon or information in general would be greatly appreciated! Thanks in Advance

machinist · 12th July 2013, 06:24 PM

This looks like a early 20th century, perhaps earlier, hand cannon from south east Asia, a cigarette would have been the fire source.
This is just my uneducated opinion, hopefully some of the people with more experience may have an opinion.

Jim McDougall · 12th July 2013, 07:02 PM

Very impressive Aptheo, nice advance research before posting, and welcome to our forums!
I agree this is SE Asian, and though I am far from having any experience with firearms in general, this would appear to be one of the crudely fashioned 'Saturday night special' type guns used in Viet Nam. These seem to be versions of the so called 'Tonkin guns' used by highland tribes north of Hanoi, and other tribes collectively known as Montagnards.

There were many of these in the expected spectrum of variations brought back by forces in Viet Nam in the 60s, and while pretty rough, they are intriguing examples of the ersatz weapons used by these tribes in those times.

aptheo · 12th July 2013, 08:52 PM

Thanks for the info guys! I am wondering, what exactly tipped you off that this is SE Asian? I am interning with a museum in Southern California, and they asked me to photograph the object for our records. When I saw the details, I began to question them. Aside from what's in my first post, apparently the donor told us that the object was found in Trabuco Canyon. Trabuco Canyon is so named because apparently a friar that was travelling with the Spanish Explorer Gaspar de Portola lost his trabuco while passing through. This would have happened around 1769-70. Since the gun is definitely not a flintlock, I was almost positive that this was not the trabuco of Trabuco Canyon (as was implied by the records) and thought it might be older, since it seemed to be some kind of matchlock. As I looked at older weapons, however, nothing really seemed to match. My guess was that it was some kind of home-brewed thing, or some kind of serpentine matchlock, but I had no way of dating it. If you could recommend books or sources that I could cite for research, I would be extremely grateful. The attached picture is from a Wikipedia article. It's a matchlock from Germany that I thought seemed a possible match. But since you both seem to agree this is SEA, should I re-post this in another section of the forum? Sorry my posts are so lengthy, this project has plagued me for months and I'm excited to finally get some answers.

Jim McDougall · 13th July 2013, 08:35 AM

Actually for me I would consider my input to be more recollection of material from various notes and references concerning Viet Nam era souveniers and research on a dha brought back also in the 60s. That case resulted in some contact with a professor of anthropology at University of California who was at that time studying the Hmong tribes of Montagnards.
These tribal groups were key allies with American troops in Viet Nam, and many resituated in Southern California.
I grew up in Southern California and am quite familiar with Trabuco Canyon and so on.
As you are well aware, many donors to museums unknowingly pass on data with items which unfortunately corresponds to family lore and often broad assumptions. As with most forms of antiquities or collected items, often exuberant optimism leads to misidentifications, so your further research is clearly prudent and well placed.
As you have seen, the character of this piece seems quite modern,though some of the components seem well aged. In these regions in Viet Nam, use of old components which certainly may have been around in degree, was not uncommon for these Montagnard tribes in these instances.

I am not aware of any specific publications, however many of the gun magazines have had numerous articles about weaponry used by these Montagnards during the Viet Nam war so I would check thier indexes.
Also Scott Rodell of Seven Stars Trading in Virginia and his colleague Philip Tom of California are probably the foremost authorities who may offer more insight on these kinds of arms.

aptheo · 14th July 2013, 09:32 PM

Jim,

Thank you so much for your thoughtful response. Yes, after working here for a year now, I have learned that the idea of a specifically trained museum professional is really a recent trend, and a lot (A LOT) of our work involves correcting errors made in the past. Family lore is the bane of good history. I will look into contacting those two individuals, I am very interested in finding out more about the gun. Even though it's not Portola's trabuco, it still seems like it could be a great piece of history.

drac2k · 6th August 2013, 02:28 PM

I have seen this style of wall gun used by the Japanese.These matchlocks were sold to them by the early Portuguese traders; as the Japanese evolved, it is not unimaginable that an obsolete weapon would be traded, sold, or stolen by another bellicose people of less martial sophistication.
The gun is a poor reflection on it's initial glory, however as a thing of great worth, it was modified, repaired, and patched, by various different owners painting a mural of many different owners and as such it is a beautiful canvas on which many wonderful stories can be inferred !
David

Matchlock · 24th May 2014, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aptheo

Hello all,

I am a new member, and this is my first post. I have been trying to identify an old gun for some time now, and although I have a degree in history, I am in no way an expert on firearms history. The gun was attributed as a "flintlock ball and cap type blunderbuss" of Spanish origin that is missing the lock, trigger, and stock. When I saw the gun, I doubted that assessment, because there does no appear to have been a flint lock ever attached, and there is no place for a trigger either. I think that it is probably a matchlock. I can't tell if it is a Spanish Blunderbuss (Trabuco) or not, and there are no maker's marks or any other distinguishing marks on the gun. The muzzle has a diameter of about 3/4", or 1 and 9/10 cm. Any help in identifying this old weapon or information in general would be greatly appreciated! Thanks in Advance

Hi Aptheo,

Sadly, it was only this morning that I only noticed your thread, and the highly interesting gun.

I am absolutely convinced that this is a late 15th century (the period of Columbus !!!) or early 16th century 'military' gun mounted with a wrought iron barrel, and stocked in a way which, just like the form of the barrel does - especially the form of the igniting pan and the muzzle - , that all point in the said direction.

This old piece has certainly seen service over maybe hundreds of years, and in the course of time has undergone some alterations and 'modernizations'.

I will comment more on this soon.

For today, I reattached your images, after some photshopping done.

Please see
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...dating+barrels

and my threads:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...dating+barrels

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...iller+haquebut

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...+arquebus+1520

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...iller+haquebut

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...iller+haquebut

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 24th May 2014, 10:23 PM

.

aptheo · 25th May 2014, 07:42 AM

Micheal,

Wow, I never expected to have another reply to this thread. I appreciate your time and thought, but unfortunately I am no longer in a good position to work on this project. After a year of interning with the museum, I left and took a job teaching English in China, which is where I am now. Fortunately, I still keep in contact with my friends at the museum, and I am sure they would be excited to see your sources and hear your input, as we were never able to conclusively discover what exactly the gun is. I contacted a few specialists, and I think three people independently said that it is likely Asian in origin. I can send you a link to a small article that I contributed to to with information on the story of the gun, but I don't want to be advertising the museum here in case that violates any rules of either this forum or the museum.

I can also put you in contact with someone at the museum and maybe they will consider looking into it again, although with a small staff and a team of generally inexperienced volunteers, the amount of work they can handle is limited and progress is always slow. They are a great group of people though, at least the ones I knew while I was still there.

Matchlock · 25th May 2014, 06:05 PM

Hi Aptheo,

I would much appreciate your getting me in touch with both the Bowers Museum and the few people you mentioned!

Please pass on my email to them, together with my posts.

Basically, I do not exactly share your opinion that that arquebus in question originates from Asia, and was made there. The general shape of the gun, and features like the absence of a lock mechanism, all make me tentatively assign a very early date, and a European, maybe German, Bavarian/Franconian (Nuremberg?) background to it.

Before assuming that provenance with sufficient probability, though, I definitely need [[/B] needle-sharp high-resolution images of the gun, with a minimum of 7 MB per photo.
I also need to know the bore!
The brass pan is a later addition, and of Asian type - without a provision for a cover; the dovetailing for the original wrought iron pan, fitted with a pivoted swiveling cover, is still clearly visible.

Arquebus is the correct term for this small 'long' arm, its overall length of only 33.5 in, equaling 85 cm, and making it longer than a fine and important German (Nuremberg manufactured) Landsknecht arquebus or Halbhaken, with a recoil hook, dated 1516?, preserved in the Kelvingrove Museum in Glasgow, inv.no. A. 1977.65 up, measuring only 74 cm overall (topmost three attachments):
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ingrove+museum

For example, a fine Central Italian (Tuscan) Landsknecht arquebus of about 1520-30, in my collection (see three attachments), is 82 cm long, cal. 14 mm smoothbore:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...necht+arquebus

I am certain that mentioning a museum like the Bowers in Santa Ana, OC, California will not violate any forum rules, so please allow me to link their site here:
http://www.bowers.org/
http://www.bowers.org/index.php/coll...ent-collection
http://bowers.org/index.php/collecti...on-trabuco-gun

Best,
Michael

aptheo · 26th May 2014, 10:50 AM

Michael,

If I were still at the museum, or even still in California, I would be rushing to the archive to pull the object and photo it, but unfortunately that is impossible for me now. I have sent your contact info to the museum, they should get back to you at some point. I believe they are in the middle of planning several future exhibitions as well as travelling an exhibit to China, so this is a very busy time for them. Please be patient if they are slow to respond. Let me know if there is anything more I can do for you. While I am very busy myself, I have a strong personal curiosity about this particular object. Thanks again for taking the time to help us out, I truly appreciate it.

11th July 2013, 10:10 PM	#1
aptheo Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Southern California Posts: 8	Need Help Identifying an antique firearm Hello all, I am a new member, and this is my first post. I have been trying to identify an old gun for some time now, and although I have a degree in history, I am in no way an expert on firearms history. The gun was attributed as a "flintlock ball and cap type blunderbuss" of Spanish origin that is missing the lock, trigger, and stock. When I saw the gun, I doubted that assessment, because there does no appear to have been a flint lock ever attached, and there is no place for a trigger either. I think that it is probably a matchlock. I can't tell if it is a Spanish Blunderbuss (Trabuco) or not, and there are no maker's marks or any other distinguishing marks on the gun. The muzzle has a diameter of about 3/4", or 1 and 9/10 cm. Any help in identifying this old weapon or information in general would be greatly appreciated! Thanks in Advance Attached Images

12th July 2013, 08:52 PM	#4
aptheo Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Southern California Posts: 8	Thanks for the info guys! I am wondering, what exactly tipped you off that this is SE Asian? I am interning with a museum in Southern California, and they asked me to photograph the object for our records. When I saw the details, I began to question them. Aside from what's in my first post, apparently the donor told us that the object was found in Trabuco Canyon. Trabuco Canyon is so named because apparently a friar that was travelling with the Spanish Explorer Gaspar de Portola lost his trabuco while passing through. This would have happened around 1769-70. Since the gun is definitely not a flintlock, I was almost positive that this was not the trabuco of Trabuco Canyon (as was implied by the records) and thought it might be older, since it seemed to be some kind of matchlock. As I looked at older weapons, however, nothing really seemed to match. My guess was that it was some kind of home-brewed thing, or some kind of serpentine matchlock, but I had no way of dating it. If you could recommend books or sources that I could cite for research, I would be extremely grateful. The attached picture is from a Wikipedia article. It's a matchlock from Germany that I thought seemed a possible match. But since you both seem to agree this is SEA, should I re-post this in another section of the forum? Sorry my posts are so lengthy, this project has plagued me for months and I'm excited to finally get some answers. Attached Images

25th May 2014, 06:05 PM	#11
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Aptheo, I would much appreciate your getting me in touch with both the Bowers Museum and the few people you mentioned! Please pass on my email to them, together with my posts. Basically, I do not exactly share your opinion that that arquebus in question originates from Asia, and was made there. The general shape of the gun, and features like the absence of a lock mechanism, all make me tentatively assign a very early date, and a European, maybe German, Bavarian/Franconian (Nuremberg?) background to it. Before assuming that provenance with sufficient probability, though, I definitely need [[/B] needle-sharp high-resolution images of the gun, with a minimum of 7 MB per photo. I also need to know the bore! The brass pan is a later addition, and of Asian type - without a provision for a cover; the dovetailing for the original wrought iron pan, fitted with a pivoted swiveling cover, is still clearly visible. Arquebus is the correct term for this small 'long' arm, its overall length of only 33.5 in, equaling 85 cm, and making it longer than a fine and important German (Nuremberg manufactured) Landsknecht arquebus or Halbhaken, with a recoil hook, dated 1516?, preserved in the Kelvingrove Museum in Glasgow, inv.no. A. 1977.65 up, measuring only 74 cm overall (topmost three attachments): http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ingrove+museum For example, a fine Central Italian (Tuscan) Landsknecht arquebus of about 1520-30, in my collection (see three attachments), is 82 cm long, cal. 14 mm smoothbore: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...necht+arquebus I am certain that mentioning a museum like the Bowers in Santa Ana, OC, California will not violate any forum rules, so please allow me to link their site here: http://www.bowers.org/ http://www.bowers.org/index.php/coll...ent-collection http://bowers.org/index.php/collecti...on-trabuco-gun Best, Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 25th May 2014 at 10:40 PM.

12th July 2013, 06:24 PM	#2
machinist Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 93	This looks like a early 20th century, perhaps earlier, hand cannon from south east Asia, a cigarette would have been the fire source. This is just my uneducated opinion, hopefully some of the people with more experience may have an opinion.

12th July 2013, 07:02 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Very impressive Aptheo, nice advance research before posting, and welcome to our forums! I agree this is SE Asian, and though I am far from having any experience with firearms in general, this would appear to be one of the crudely fashioned 'Saturday night special' type guns used in Viet Nam. These seem to be versions of the so called 'Tonkin guns' used by highland tribes north of Hanoi, and other tribes collectively known as Montagnards. There were many of these in the expected spectrum of variations brought back by forces in Viet Nam in the 60s, and while pretty rough, they are intriguing examples of the ersatz weapons used by these tribes in those times.

13th July 2013, 08:35 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Actually for me I would consider my input to be more recollection of material from various notes and references concerning Viet Nam era souveniers and research on a dha brought back also in the 60s. That case resulted in some contact with a professor of anthropology at University of California who was at that time studying the Hmong tribes of Montagnards. These tribal groups were key allies with American troops in Viet Nam, and many resituated in Southern California. I grew up in Southern California and am quite familiar with Trabuco Canyon and so on. As you are well aware, many donors to museums unknowingly pass on data with items which unfortunately corresponds to family lore and often broad assumptions. As with most forms of antiquities or collected items, often exuberant optimism leads to misidentifications, so your further research is clearly prudent and well placed. As you have seen, the character of this piece seems quite modern,though some of the components seem well aged. In these regions in Viet Nam, use of old components which certainly may have been around in degree, was not uncommon for these Montagnard tribes in these instances. I am not aware of any specific publications, however many of the gun magazines have had numerous articles about weaponry used by these Montagnards during the Viet Nam war so I would check thier indexes. Also Scott Rodell of Seven Stars Trading in Virginia and his colleague Philip Tom of California are probably the foremost authorities who may offer more insight on these kinds of arms.

14th July 2013, 09:32 PM	#6
aptheo Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Southern California Posts: 8	Jim, Thank you so much for your thoughtful response. Yes, after working here for a year now, I have learned that the idea of a specifically trained museum professional is really a recent trend, and a lot (A LOT) of our work involves correcting errors made in the past. Family lore is the bane of good history. I will look into contacting those two individuals, I am very interested in finding out more about the gun. Even though it's not Portola's trabuco, it still seems like it could be a great piece of history.

6th August 2013, 02:28 PM	#7
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,234	I have seen this style of wall gun used by the Japanese.These matchlocks were sold to them by the early Portuguese traders; as the Japanese evolved, it is not unimaginable that an obsolete weapon would be traded, sold, or stolen by another bellicose people of less martial sophistication. The gun is a poor reflection on it's initial glory, however as a thing of great worth, it was modified, repaired, and patched, by various different owners painting a mural of many different owners and as such it is a beautiful canvas on which many wonderful stories can be inferred ! David

24th May 2014, 10:23 PM	#9
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	.

25th May 2014, 07:42 AM	#10
aptheo Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Southern California Posts: 8	Micheal, Wow, I never expected to have another reply to this thread. I appreciate your time and thought, but unfortunately I am no longer in a good position to work on this project. After a year of interning with the museum, I left and took a job teaching English in China, which is where I am now. Fortunately, I still keep in contact with my friends at the museum, and I am sure they would be excited to see your sources and hear your input, as we were never able to conclusively discover what exactly the gun is. I contacted a few specialists, and I think three people independently said that it is likely Asian in origin. I can send you a link to a small article that I contributed to to with information on the story of the gun, but I don't want to be advertising the museum here in case that violates any rules of either this forum or the museum. I can also put you in contact with someone at the museum and maybe they will consider looking into it again, although with a small staff and a team of generally inexperienced volunteers, the amount of work they can handle is limited and progress is always slow. They are a great group of people though, at least the ones I knew while I was still there.

26th May 2014, 10:50 AM	#12
aptheo Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Southern California Posts: 8	Michael, If I were still at the museum, or even still in California, I would be rushing to the archive to pull the object and photo it, but unfortunately that is impossible for me now. I have sent your contact info to the museum, they should get back to you at some point. I believe they are in the middle of planning several future exhibitions as well as travelling an exhibit to China, so this is a very busy time for them. Please be patient if they are slow to respond. Let me know if there is anything more I can do for you. While I am very busy myself, I have a strong personal curiosity about this particular object. Thanks again for taking the time to help us out, I truly appreciate it.