Question on earliest use of powder horn

Eric Slyter · 26th June 2013, 03:45 AM

Hello all

First, this is my first post here after having read a number of fascinating posts. This forum was very helpful in helping my organization develop a handgonne program.

On that note, what is the earliest known date for the use of a powder horn? We're setting our programming in the 1380s, and are using a handgonne of the type with a short tube set into a groove on a long stock. I've seen illustrations of powder horns from around the first quarter of the 1400s, but not sooner than that.

Can anyone point me in the right direction?

Thanks!

Eric Slyter · 27th July 2013, 12:54 AM

Any help on this? I've heard elsewhere that gourds were the earliest forms of portable container for handgonne powder. Can anyone confirm or deny this? Thanks!

Andi · 26th August 2013, 03:21 PM

To me, so far no illustrations of powder horns are known prior to 1400. The earliest powder horn illustration I know so far ist from Amtliche Berner Chronik from second half of 15th century. On which illustration you have seen the powder horn? Can you please post it?

Eric Slyter · 9th April 2014, 08:28 AM

Hi Andi

Sorry for the late reply, I didn't realize someone had answered.

I remembered my source incorrectly on the powder horn- the illustration I saw was from the late 1400s, not early 1400s.

I had been told that gourds were used for gunpowder before powder horns, but they were never able to provide a source for that information. Without something more solid to go on, I'm going to have to proceed with a powder horn as a best guess for the late 1300s for lack of a better choice.

Marcus den toom · 9th April 2014, 05:13 PM

Hi Eric,

Michael has done tons of research on this subject

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16149

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...4&page=1&pp=30

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8519

Matchlock · 10th April 2014, 05:30 PM

Hi Eric,

I don't know (but am curious to know!) what illustrations of a powder horn of the late 1400's you're referring to exactly.

The earliest sources of period artwork known to me are two colored drawings by the Swiss historian Diebold Schilling, from his Berner Chronik of 1483 (top attachments).
On an internet site for private photo sharing, I found the attached images of a stone sculpture representing an arquebusier with his arquebus and octagonally shaped powder horn, dated early 16th century and labeled to be part of a cathedral in Chartreuse, France.
The web, however, does not identify such a city, just a French mountain range of that name.

The latest documents of the use of long cow horns, by then fitted with a dosing mechanism comprising both an iron nozzle and sprung cut-off, are of ca. 1530:

- representations of Landsknechte (mercenaries) on a series of Brussels tapestries depicting scenes from the Battle of Pavia, 1525
- a painting by Melchior Feselen, Ingolstadt/Bavaria, called The Batttle of Alesia, dated 1533 (two attachments at the bottom).

Cow horns pressed flat after softened by hot water stayed in use from ca. 1590 to 1620, and then again around 1700 to 1750, with many of them easily identifiable as originally belonging to wheellock guns: often their bodies are combined with a spanner.

Please read my thread
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=alesia

For more information on this topic, also see my thread
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=powder+flasks - thanks a lot to Marcus for linking it!

Best,
Michael
(on returning home from hospital)

Eric Slyter · 15th April 2014, 11:36 AM

Hi Matchlock

Yes, the one you posted from 1483 is the one I was referring to.

I did read through the other threads but didn't find what I was looking for. My interest is the late 1300s, which I realize is earlier than reliable information provides for.

Matchlock · 15th April 2014, 06:25 PM

Absolutely, Eric,

The oldest datable sources of period artwork depicting powder horns - or, generally speaking, any kind of receptacles for keeping gun powder - are as 'young' as the 1480's (by Diebold Schilling, see my post above).
This is why I set up the thesis that the sidebags worn by everybody up to ca. 1600 served as the first 'receptacles' for powder and ball as well before horns entered the scene:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=powder+ball

In the 'Maximilian' period, around 1500, they were called 'pulvertaschen' (powder bags).

Best,
Michael

26th June 2013, 03:45 AM	#1
Eric Slyter Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 8	Question on earliest use of powder horn Hello all First, this is my first post here after having read a number of fascinating posts. This forum was very helpful in helping my organization develop a handgonne program. On that note, what is the earliest known date for the use of a powder horn? We're setting our programming in the 1380s, and are using a handgonne of the type with a short tube set into a groove on a long stock. I've seen illustrations of powder horns from around the first quarter of the 1400s, but not sooner than that. Can anyone point me in the right direction? Thanks!

10th April 2014, 05:30 PM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Eric, I don't know (but am curious to know!) what illustrations of a powder horn of the late 1400's you're referring to exactly. The earliest sources of period artwork known to me are two colored drawings by the Swiss historian Diebold Schilling, from his Berner Chronik of 1483 (top attachments). On an internet site for private photo sharing, I found the attached images of a stone sculpture representing an arquebusier with his arquebus and octagonally shaped powder horn, dated early 16th century and labeled to be part of a cathedral in Chartreuse, France. The web, however, does not identify such a city, just a French mountain range of that name. The latest documents of the use of long cow horns, by then fitted with a dosing mechanism comprising both an iron nozzle and sprung cut-off, are of ca. 1530: - representations of Landsknechte (mercenaries) on a series of Brussels tapestries depicting scenes from the Battle of Pavia, 1525 - a painting by Melchior Feselen, Ingolstadt/Bavaria, called The Batttle of Alesia, dated 1533 (two attachments at the bottom). Cow horns pressed flat after softened by hot water stayed in use from ca. 1590 to 1620, and then again around 1700 to 1750, with many of them easily identifiable as originally belonging to wheellock guns: often their bodies are combined with a spanner. Please read my thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=alesia For more information on this topic, also see my thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=powder+flasks - thanks a lot to Marcus for linking it! Best, Michael (on returning home from hospital) Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 10th April 2014 at 11:36 PM.

15th April 2014, 06:25 PM	#8
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Absolutely, Eric, The oldest datable sources of period artwork depicting powder horns - or, generally speaking, any kind of receptacles for keeping gun powder - are as 'young' as the 1480's (by Diebold Schilling, see my post above). This is why I set up the thesis that the sidebags worn by everybody up to ca. 1600 served as the first 'receptacles' for powder and ball as well before horns entered the scene: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=powder+ball In the 'Maximilian' period, around 1500, they were called 'pulvertaschen' (powder bags). Best, Michael Last edited by Matchlock; 15th April 2014 at 07:20 PM.

27th July 2013, 12:54 AM	#2
Eric Slyter Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 8	Any help on this? I've heard elsewhere that gourds were the earliest forms of portable container for handgonne powder. Can anyone confirm or deny this? Thanks!

26th August 2013, 03:21 PM	#3
Andi Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Halstenbek, Germany Posts: 203	To me, so far no illustrations of powder horns are known prior to 1400. The earliest powder horn illustration I know so far ist from Amtliche Berner Chronik from second half of 15th century. On which illustration you have seen the powder horn? Can you please post it?

9th April 2014, 08:28 AM	#4
Eric Slyter Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 8	Hi Andi Sorry for the late reply, I didn't realize someone had answered. I remembered my source incorrectly on the powder horn- the illustration I saw was from the late 1400s, not early 1400s. I had been told that gourds were used for gunpowder before powder horns, but they were never able to provide a source for that information. Without something more solid to go on, I'm going to have to proceed with a powder horn as a best guess for the late 1300s for lack of a better choice.

9th April 2014, 05:13 PM	#5
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 525	Hi Eric, Michael has done tons of research on this subject http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16149 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...4&page=1&pp=30 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8519

15th April 2014, 11:36 AM	#7
Eric Slyter Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 8	Hi Matchlock Yes, the one you posted from 1483 is the one I was referring to. I did read through the other threads but didn't find what I was looking for. My interest is the late 1300s, which I realize is earlier than reliable information provides for.