Old Kris for comment

Gavin Nugent · 2nd January 2008, 05:55 AM

Hi, this is a very heavy and sturdy Kris that will be returned to Bali in 2008. I though you all might want a look before it finds it's way back to it's rightful heirs.

regards

Gavin

A. G. Maisey · 2nd January 2008, 06:19 AM

You've piqued my interest, Freebooter.

Can you tell us why you think this particular keris should be returned to Bali?

Is there some reason why this keris is culturally important?

I would be very interested in anything you feel inclined to tell us in this regard.

Gavin Nugent · 2nd January 2008, 07:03 AM

Thanks for your interest,

The short and sweet of it all revolves around a very dear friend of mine and his love for a small group of people from Tampaksiring whom with very little help and 8 years of his life he "dragged" for want of a better word from the 10th century into the world as we know it today, all this took part in the 70's and early 80's.
As I am sure you are all aware the kris is an integral part of Balinese life, ceremonies and festivities and denotes a man’s standing in society as well as being an important part of his formal attire when attending important functions.
The sad part for these people in question is that like so many others native to Bali they do not have Kris knives of their own and often need to borrow Kris for these said ceremonies. I could prattle on further...if there are any individuals out there who have balinese Kris and would like to travel to Bali and return these blades to these people first hand, please feel free to PM me and I will help co-ordinate anything I can.

very best regards

Gavin

A. G. Maisey · 2nd January 2008, 07:45 AM

Praiseworthy motivation, Freebooter, however, unless you present this keris in suitable dress, or provide the means for these people to suitably dress it themselves, I fear your objective of assistance may be met in a slightly different manner to that which you intend.

I assume it will be gifted to the banjar, not to an individual?

Gavin Nugent · 2nd January 2008, 11:59 AM

Thanks for your posting. These people in question do very much have the means to dress the Kris and will do suitably, I am activley looking for old Bali Kris and also blades only if they are of any quality as the rest is incidental to the cause, I too am trying to obtain some fossilised walrus tusk for their carvings but no one who has the tusk wants to ship outside the USA.
As for being received in a different manner than intended, this excercise has been done before and will be done again with much praise and thanks for caring about what matters to them.

thanks

Gavin

David · 2nd January 2008, 02:20 PM

Gavin, why fossilized walrus tusk? It is not a particularly traditional material for Bali keris dress.
As i scan the news of the day i am not sure that your friend did these people any favors "dragging" them, as you say into "the world as we know it today"

I also have a bit of trouble seeing how this particular keris is somehow being returned to it's "rightful heirs".
I am all in favor for seeing that people who want to stay in touch with their culture and tradition have that opportunity. I wonder though if a better way to do it might not be to provide new blades for this purpose as i doubt that these people have any actual family heirloom connection to most (or any) of the blades you are "returning" to them.

A. G. Maisey · 2nd January 2008, 08:49 PM

Thank you Gavin for your additional comments.

I now understand clearly the level of your knowledge in this area, and your comprehension of social conditions and mores in Bali.

You have my complements for your commitment, and my best wishes for the success of your venture.

Gavin Nugent · 3rd January 2008, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Gavin, why fossilized walrus tusk? It is not a particularly traditional material for Bali keris dress.
As i scan the news of the day i am not sure that your friend did these people any favors "dragging" them, as you say into "the world as we know it today"

I also have a bit of trouble seeing how this particular keris is somehow being returned to it's "rightful heirs".
I am all in favor for seeing that people who want to stay in touch with their culture and tradition have that opportunity. I wonder though if a better way to do it might not be to provide new blades for this purpose as i doubt that these people have any actual family heirloom connection to most (or any) of the blades you are "returning" to them.

Thanks David,

I think you may have read to far into the fossil Walrus Ivory, I made no mention that it is for the Kris, I do however wish to obtain these peices as I know they are very well regarded by the masterful carvers whom they will go too.

As for all we read in the news...I know they are very happy and grateful to be who they are and where they are in life, they are of high caste and since been shown other ways of coping many decades ago, they are doing very well for themselves, this is not to say they would not have done this on their own and in their own time, but what is done is done and I have been bought into this wonderful connection that my dear friend Max has with these people.

I do also correspond via email helping with English as often as I can with Gede's son Gusde (and forgive me for not using their full names but it's just not cricket putting their full names up here).

With regards to the "Rightful Heirs", you are right there is no single line that can point to this piece being traced back to their linage, the phrase is more ment to place this knife in it's country of origin with people who appreciate it's return. It is purely in the giving of the piece, not that I am in way against collecting artifacts, I am an avid collector but these people have an afinity to these knives and as it is of little effort or money on my part, I see no reason why I should not help where I can, where many won't. For those close to me who take an interest, other parts of my collections will find ways to other individuals in years to come.

I do appreciate you being in favour of some sort of effort being made to bring these blades into their hands but anyone can buy a new knife...I might well ask all, why I should NOT do this, but like everyone in this world we do as we do.

I feel they have more of a right to these old kris, for they are to be of an important and practical use to them, rather than having them sitting in another country. I am sure all in this forum are aware of the beliefs Balinese have about "old kris blades".

So far other cultures go these are the only re-patronisations I feel strongly about thus far with a small exception of a Sudanese knife I gave to a young Sudanese man 3 doors up, some people never ever get the chance to hold a piece of their heritage, why should I have all the pleasure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Thank you Gavin for your additional comments.

I now understand clearly the level of your knowledge in this area, and your comprehension of social conditions and mores in Bali.

You have my complements for your commitment, and my best wishes for the success of your venture.

Thank you A. G. Maisley

best regards

Gavin

Gavin Nugent · 18th September 2010, 11:56 AM

I nearly did forget to add this portion of a wedding photo that includes this very Keris pictured above in new dress.
I'll be back in November with another wonderful Keris that a very very generous forum member has sent to me with the best intentions. I'll be sure to obtain a few better photos in Novemebr too, I may even take one of my Kudi Tranchangs with me too

still undecided.

Gav

2nd January 2008, 05:55 AM	#1
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Old Kris for comment Hi, this is a very heavy and sturdy Kris that will be returned to Bali in 2008. I though you all might want a look before it finds it's way back to it's rightful heirs. regards Gavin Attached Images

2nd January 2008, 07:03 AM	#3
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	More to Bali than the BS of the tourist Mecca of Kuta. Thanks for your interest, The short and sweet of it all revolves around a very dear friend of mine and his love for a small group of people from Tampaksiring whom with very little help and 8 years of his life he "dragged" for want of a better word from the 10th century into the world as we know it today, all this took part in the 70's and early 80's. As I am sure you are all aware the kris is an integral part of Balinese life, ceremonies and festivities and denotes a man’s standing in society as well as being an important part of his formal attire when attending important functions. The sad part for these people in question is that like so many others native to Bali they do not have Kris knives of their own and often need to borrow Kris for these said ceremonies. I could prattle on further...if there are any individuals out there who have balinese Kris and would like to travel to Bali and return these blades to these people first hand, please feel free to PM me and I will help co-ordinate anything I can. very best regards Gavin

2nd January 2008, 11:59 AM	#5
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	The means Thanks for your posting. These people in question do very much have the means to dress the Kris and will do suitably, I am activley looking for old Bali Kris and also blades only if they are of any quality as the rest is incidental to the cause, I too am trying to obtain some fossilised walrus tusk for their carvings but no one who has the tusk wants to ship outside the USA. As for being received in a different manner than intended, this excercise has been done before and will be done again with much praise and thanks for caring about what matters to them. thanks Gavin

2nd January 2008, 08:49 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	Thank you Gavin for your additional comments. I now understand clearly the level of your knowledge in this area, and your comprehension of social conditions and mores in Bali. You have my complements for your commitment, and my best wishes for the success of your venture. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 3rd January 2008 at 02:03 AM.

18th September 2010, 11:56 AM	#9
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Nearly forgot I nearly did forget to add this portion of a wedding photo that includes this very Keris pictured above in new dress. I'll be back in November with another wonderful Keris that a very very generous forum member has sent to me with the best intentions. I'll be sure to obtain a few better photos in Novemebr too, I may even take one of my Kudi Tranchangs with me too still undecided. Gav Attached Images

2nd January 2008, 06:19 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	You've piqued my interest, Freebooter. Can you tell us why you think this particular keris should be returned to Bali? Is there some reason why this keris is culturally important? I would be very interested in anything you feel inclined to tell us in this regard.

2nd January 2008, 07:45 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	Praiseworthy motivation, Freebooter, however, unless you present this keris in suitable dress, or provide the means for these people to suitably dress it themselves, I fear your objective of assistance may be met in a slightly different manner to that which you intend. I assume it will be gifted to the banjar, not to an individual?

2nd January 2008, 02:20 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,113	Gavin, why fossilized walrus tusk? It is not a particularly traditional material for Bali keris dress. As i scan the news of the day i am not sure that your friend did these people any favors "dragging" them, as you say into "the world as we know it today" I also have a bit of trouble seeing how this particular keris is somehow being returned to it's "rightful heirs". I am all in favor for seeing that people who want to stay in touch with their culture and tradition have that opportunity. I wonder though if a better way to do it might not be to provide new blades for this purpose as i doubt that these people have any actual family heirloom connection to most (or any) of the blades you are "returning" to them.