Small Ottoman (?) knife for ID, Bulgarian shepherd's knife?

Sajen · 20th October 2018, 02:51 PM

Hello members,

I came across this small well worked knife, handle from some sort of horn interlard with iron nails for better grip, bolster and end cap casted brass, blade is worked with care. It's very small with 18,5 cm overall, 9,5 cm visible blade length, peened blind tang. 3,6 mm thick near the handle. Weight is 44 gram.
I am not firm with Ottoman knives and daggers but think that it is very Ottoman influenced!?

I have seen similar knives described as Bulgarian shepherd's knives, is it such an item? See for example here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=bulgarian
It look very old to my eyes.
Who can help with the exact id and/or is able to tell me a little bit more about this small fellow?

Regards,
Detlef

Kubur · 20th October 2018, 04:38 PM

Hi
I confirm what you wrote it's Ottoman, but i don't know if its Turkish or Balkan...

Sajen · 20th October 2018, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi
I confirm what you wrote it's Ottoman, but i don't know if its Turkish or Balkan...

Hi,
Thank's for comment and confirming that it's Ottoman. Hope someone can tell me more!

Regards,
Detlef

Sajen · 21st October 2018, 10:24 AM

Thanks Kubur I know that it's indeed a Ottoman knife!

No one is able to tell me more about it? Exact origin, age? Would be very thankful!

Sajen · 21st October 2018, 10:33 AM

It coming with a similar but bigger one which I have resold, here some auction pictures, maybe it's helpful.

drac2k · 21st October 2018, 02:07 PM

Very nice knife; the blade profile and the file work remind me of Cretan blades.

Sajen · 21st October 2018, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drac2k

Very nice knife; the blade profile and the file work remind me of Cretan blades.

Thank you!

TVV · 21st October 2018, 06:31 PM

This is not connected to Bulgarian shepherd's knives for sure. To me it is reminiscent of Central Asian knives, such as the Uzbek pichok (you can see some earlier Bukhara examples in the Moser collection, etc. for comparison). This does not mean it is not Ottoman - in fact, it most probably is, but it is an older Central Asian form and not connected to the Balkans.

Teodor

Sajen · 21st October 2018, 09:35 PM

Thank you very much Teodor!

Regards,
Detlef

sfenoid13 · 4th November 2018, 06:33 AM

I collect these knives and I know it is Ottoman Turkish from the Black Sea region. It belongs to Laz people. Laz people, today considered a minority muslim community in Turkey live along the Black Sea especially Trebizond area and are excellent knive makers, even today. this style was popular at the beginning o fthe century early 1900s until 40s and even 50s. They have somewhet changed in style but they have a dinstinct style and very detailed and quality workmanship and decorations. If you know Laz Yatagans you know what I am talking about

. These knives arealso known as "bichak" or "saldirma", you can also search "Karadeniz Saldirma" in google and you will see similar knives. My favorite knife type.

Sajen · 4th November 2018, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sfenoid13

I collect these knives and I know it is Ottoman Turkish from the Black Sea region. It belongs to Laz people. Laz people, today considered a minority muslim community in Turkey live along the Black Sea especially Trebizond area and are excellent knive makers, even today. this style was popular at the beginning o fthe century early 1900s until 40s and even 50s. They have somewhet changed in style but they have a dinstinct style and very detailed and quality workmanship and decorations. If you know Laz Yatagans you know what I am talking about

. These knives arealso known as "bichak" or "saldirma", you can also search "Karadeniz Saldirma" in google and you will see similar knives. My favorite knife type.

Hello Sfenoid,

thank you very much for pin down the exact origin of this little knife. Sadly my search with your given keywords don't show any similar knives.
Would you be so kind to show some of your examples for comparison? So we would have a reference thread to show this knife type.

Regards,
Detlef

sfenoid13 · 4th November 2018, 06:21 PM

Hi,
I just realized how hard it is to find good samples of these knives online

. They come from a very small area and they have a very specific style and design to them, with some variations of course. The main town that produces them is Surmene, so you can also look up Surmene Knife in yoru search. You will see that they still make these knives today, actually very similar looking to your samples as well (other than the handle style and bronze details).
I dont have pictures of my collection readily available but I found some examples online for you just now.

Sajen · 4th November 2018, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sfenoid13

Hi,
I just realized how hard it is to find good samples of these knives online

. They come from a very small area and they have a very specific style and design to them, with some variations of course. The main town that produces them is Surmene, so you can also look up Surmene Knife in yoru search. You will see that they still make these knives today, actually very similar looking to your samples as well (other than the handle style and bronze details).
I dont have pictures of my collection readily available but I found some examples online for you just now.

Hi Sfenoid,
thank you very much for the provided examples, now I see that you are correct.

Do you know the purpose of this knives? Utility? Weapon?
I don't want to give pressure but would be glad to see your collection of this knife type (saldirma) one day!

Any age guess by my example?

Regards,
Detlef

sfenoid13 · 4th November 2018, 08:58 PM

These knives were made mostly for utility, the smaller types but the larger ones were carried for self defense or intimidation. The word "saldirma" means "attack" and it is the name given to the larger of these knives. they have the blood channels and a curved double edge tip for stabbing. there are even traditional folklor dances including these knives where 2 or 4 men dance with knives pretend to attack each other

Some of the large ones are really impressive and scary. If you saw someone with a knife like that you would know to stay away from them

. There are also sets with knives, forks being together for picnic purposes

I will gladly show you my collection when I get a chance.
Of the date for yours I believe is 1920s or may be later..hard to tell. Bigger ones are usually older as carrying knives and swords was banned in modern era Turkey after WW2 I believe. It is still illegal to carry knives on person in Turkey. Many of the swords, yatagans and big knives were hidden or destroyed because of this.

Sajen · 4th November 2018, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sfenoid13

These knives were made mostly for utility, the smaller types but the larger ones were carried for self defense or intimidation. The word "saldirma" means "attack" and it is the name given to the larger of these knives. they have the blood channels and a curved double edge tip for stabbing. there are even traditional folklor dances including these knives where 2 or 4 men dance with knives pretend to attack each other

Some of the large ones are really impressive and scary. If you saw someone with a knife like that you would know to stay away from them

.

Yes, when I look to the from you provided pictures your words make sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sfenoid13

There are also sets with knives, forks being together for picnic purposes

.

It seems, that my one coming from such a "picnic" set, it's nearby by it's size.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sfenoid13

I will gladly show you my collection when I get a chance..

I am curious!

Quote:

Originally Posted by sfenoid13

Of the date for yours I believe is 1920s or may be later..hard to tell.

Thank's again!

Sajen · 5th November 2018, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sfenoid13

I will gladly show you my collection when I get a chance.

I've received by mail pictures from Sfenoid, I've resized them and with his permission I will post them here. I for my part was very impressed!

gp · 29th September 2022, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

It coming with a similar but bigger one which I have resold, here some auction pictures, maybe it's helpful.

going through the link , the picture is indeed helpful; the bigger one has a decoration on the blade which often can be seen on the Bosnian an Serbian knives. In one of the threads on bichaqs I places one or two pics of 3 knives from little to bigger with copper handle and also the octagonal shape...

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...76&postcount=2
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...2&postcount=76

RobT · 30th September 2022, 01:42 AM

Hi sfenoid13,

I had always thought that this knife was from the Trabzon region. Is it a saldirma?

Sincerely,
RobT

David R · 30th September 2022, 08:28 AM

I just thought I might as well join in with mine, posted before but on its own thread.

gp · 30th September 2022, 08:42 AM

very nice knives but we must be careful not to mix 3 differnet types I see in this thread :

1. former Yugoslavia ( Bosnian knives)
2. Surmene knives
3. Laz knives or as they are called in Georgia "Babas Khama"
with some pics of the latter

RobT · 30th September 2022, 01:53 PM

Hi gp,

Are you saying that the knife I posted is from the "former Yugoslavia ( Bosnian knives)" and the knife that David R posted is from the "Surmene" area?. What about the pictures from sfenoid13 that Sajen posted?

Sincerely,
RobT

gp · 30th September 2022, 06:00 PM

#5 from Detlef is a Bosnian one…that triggered my attention.

Next I see a few ( very nice) Surmene ones, but also some Laz ones.

And although we recently had an interesting exchange of minds in the forum concerning the Laz yataghans, I recently learned from a professional, who is a specialist on cold weapons from that region, that these Laz daggers shown are actually Georgian ( I compared them with some pics from his collection he showed me).
Being not a specialist on the Caucasian topic, I know not all Laz are Surmene and vise versa. Sorry if my previous post lead to some confusion.

BR

Gunar

20th October 2018, 02:51 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,761	Small Ottoman (?) knife for ID, Bulgarian shepherd's knife? Hello members, I came across this small well worked knife, handle from some sort of horn interlard with iron nails for better grip, bolster and end cap casted brass, blade is worked with care. It's very small with 18,5 cm overall, 9,5 cm visible blade length, peened blind tang. 3,6 mm thick near the handle. Weight is 44 gram. I am not firm with Ottoman knives and daggers but think that it is very Ottoman influenced!? I have seen similar knives described as Bulgarian shepherd's knives, is it such an item? See for example here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=bulgarian It look very old to my eyes. Who can help with the exact id and/or is able to tell me a little bit more about this small fellow? Regards, Detlef Attached Images

4th November 2018, 06:21 PM	#12
sfenoid13 Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 134	Hi, I just realized how hard it is to find good samples of these knives online . They come from a very small area and they have a very specific style and design to them, with some variations of course. The main town that produces them is Surmene, so you can also look up Surmene Knife in yoru search. You will see that they still make these knives today, actually very similar looking to your samples as well (other than the handle style and bronze details). I dont have pictures of my collection readily available but I found some examples online for you just now. Attached Images

30th September 2022, 01:42 AM	#18
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 486	Saldirma? Hi sfenoid13, I had always thought that this knife was from the Trabzon region. Is it a saldirma? Sincerely, RobT Attached Images

30th September 2022, 08:28 AM	#19
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	I just thought I might as well join in with mine, posted before but on its own thread. Attached Images

30th September 2022, 08:42 AM	#20
gp Member Join Date: May 2020 Posts: 717	very nice knives but we must be careful not to mix 3 differnet types I see in this thread : 1. former Yugoslavia ( Bosnian knives) 2. Surmene knives 3. Laz knives or as they are called in Georgia "Babas Khama" with some pics of the latter Attached Images

20th October 2018, 04:38 PM	#2
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi I confirm what you wrote it's Ottoman, but i don't know if its Turkish or Balkan...

21st October 2018, 10:24 AM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,761	Thanks Kubur I know that it's indeed a Ottoman knife! No one is able to tell me more about it? Exact origin, age? Would be very thankful!

21st October 2018, 10:33 AM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,761	It coming with a similar but bigger one which I have resold, here some auction pictures, maybe it's helpful. Attached Images

21st October 2018, 02:07 PM	#6
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,230	Very nice knife; the blade profile and the file work remind me of Cretan blades.

21st October 2018, 06:31 PM	#8
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,619	This is not connected to Bulgarian shepherd's knives for sure. To me it is reminiscent of Central Asian knives, such as the Uzbek pichok (you can see some earlier Bukhara examples in the Moser collection, etc. for comparison). This does not mean it is not Ottoman - in fact, it most probably is, but it is an older Central Asian form and not connected to the Balkans. Teodor

21st October 2018, 09:35 PM	#9
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,761	Thank you very much Teodor! Regards, Detlef

4th November 2018, 06:33 AM	#10
sfenoid13 Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 134	I collect these knives and I know it is Ottoman Turkish from the Black Sea region. It belongs to Laz people. Laz people, today considered a minority muslim community in Turkey live along the Black Sea especially Trebizond area and are excellent knive makers, even today. this style was popular at the beginning o fthe century early 1900s until 40s and even 50s. They have somewhet changed in style but they have a dinstinct style and very detailed and quality workmanship and decorations. If you know Laz Yatagans you know what I am talking about . These knives arealso known as "bichak" or "saldirma", you can also search "Karadeniz Saldirma" in google and you will see similar knives. My favorite knife type.

4th November 2018, 08:58 PM	#14
sfenoid13 Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 134	These knives were made mostly for utility, the smaller types but the larger ones were carried for self defense or intimidation. The word "saldirma" means "attack" and it is the name given to the larger of these knives. they have the blood channels and a curved double edge tip for stabbing. there are even traditional folklor dances including these knives where 2 or 4 men dance with knives pretend to attack each other Some of the large ones are really impressive and scary. If you saw someone with a knife like that you would know to stay away from them . There are also sets with knives, forks being together for picnic purposes I will gladly show you my collection when I get a chance. Of the date for yours I believe is 1920s or may be later..hard to tell. Bigger ones are usually older as carrying knives and swords was banned in modern era Turkey after WW2 I believe. It is still illegal to carry knives on person in Turkey. Many of the swords, yatagans and big knives were hidden or destroyed because of this.

30th September 2022, 01:53 PM	#21
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 486	Which Is Which? Hi gp, Are you saying that the knife I posted is from the "former Yugoslavia ( Bosnian knives)" and the knife that David R posted is from the "Surmene" area?. What about the pictures from sfenoid13 that Sajen posted? Sincerely, RobT

30th September 2022, 06:00 PM	#22
gp Member Join Date: May 2020 Posts: 717	#5 from Detlef is a Bosnian one…that triggered my attention. Next I see a few ( very nice) Surmene ones, but also some Laz ones. And although we recently had an interesting exchange of minds in the forum concerning the Laz yataghans, I recently learned from a professional, who is a specialist on cold weapons from that region, that these Laz daggers shown are actually Georgian ( I compared them with some pics from his collection he showed me). Being not a specialist on the Caucasian topic, I know not all Laz are Surmene and vise versa. Sorry if my previous post lead to some confusion. BR Gunar Last edited by gp; 1st October 2022 at 12:21 AM.