Another interesting Moro sword

Oriental-Arms · 24th July 2006, 08:06 PM

War time here, we spend many hours in the shelter, the business is low, so it is good time to pull out from the drawer few interesting swords to share.

Here is another Moro sword, a Kampilan with finely laminated blade and very big carved handle:

Blade 29 inches, handle 11 inches long, 8 inches wide beautifully carved, with a tuft of red colored hair.

Two close ups on the handle:

We seek opinion on origin and age

VVV · 24th July 2006, 11:16 PM

Artzi,

I hope the terror very soon will be stopped so that you can leave your shelter and safely walk the multicultural streets of Haifa again.

Very nice Kampilan, did you find it in Europe?

My "working theory" is that the Kampilans with less distinct "jaws" are older than the more usual ones with longer, more open, crocodile jaws (or tail of the swiftlet).
This based on what I have found in old books and European museum collections.
It also seems as if that style were more popular in North Borneo (Sabah). But that could also be because it's further away from the place of origin and that the Kampilans there are older or more old-fashioned in style.
In f.i. Among Primitive People in Borneo by Ivor Evans he claims that the trade of weapons in this area from both Brunei and Sulu/Mindanao was common and of course that the Illanun people originally came from Mindanao.

Look forward to read some more input on this issue.

Michael

spiral · 25th July 2006, 02:20 AM

Take care Artzi, I hope peace reigns in the end. The handle carving on the Kampilion is lovely.

Re. "we spend many hours in the shelter, the business is low,"

Sounds like a good time to hold a "special one off, one time only sale" & clear some old stock from the warehouse, perhaps?

cheers,
Spiral

CharlesS · 25th July 2006, 12:08 PM

WOW!....just one more magnificent piece.

As soon as I saw this I wondered, like VVV, if this piece is from N. Borneo. Just in general observation, I find that some of the finer decorative carving combined with quality blades are attributed to that area.

Maybe some of the tribal specialist will add more.

Bill · 25th July 2006, 05:16 PM

Great sword. Looked through "from the rainbow's varied hue" for the "tiger stripe" pattern on the textile, but no match. Cato's photo #33 has a kampilan with a large scrolled hilt, not a match, but suggests this sword may have been for a bodyguard of important person. Hard to make out the "sundi" or prongs on the top edge of the blade, from your pic. Does appear to be a variation; but if we trust Cato only shows "Philippine" swords, then it really can't be identified from that, as there are plenty of variations.

Ian · 25th July 2006, 05:38 PM

I agree with Charles and Michael that this one is probably N. Borneo. Van Zonneveld shows some examples in his book from N. Borneo as well as the Philippines, and I think this particular hilt style is more consistent with N. Borneo than Mindanao. The suggestion that this one might have been a datu's weapon or "sword of state" has some credibility too.

Beautiful and unusual example of a kampilan. Keep them coming Artzi!

Unfortunately, this conflict seems it will go for a while longer. I hope you and your family stay safe through this dangerous time, and that there will not be many more casualties on either side before a solution is reached.

Ian.

VVV · 25th July 2006, 06:23 PM

I had a look in two other books and found the following illustrations of Kampilans collected in North Borneo in the 19th C.

The first is from Ling Roth, The Natives of Sarawak and British North Borneo, published in 1896.

The two other illustrations are from W Hein, Indonesische Schwertgriffe, published in 1899.

Michael

PS Sorry about the picture quality on the Hein 1 but I only have my mobile phone camera available at the moment.

zelbone · 25th July 2006, 06:34 PM

I would suggest looking more closely at the detailed carving before coming to any conclusions.

VANDOO · 25th July 2006, 08:51 PM

OH YEAH!!! NOW YOU HAVE GOT MY MOUTH WATERING

I DON'T SEE ANY BORNEO INFLUENCE IN THE CARVEING IT LOOKS PURE MORO TO ME. THE SHAPE OF THE CROCODILE HEAD HAS BEEN STYLIZED UNTIL IT IS NO LONGER IDENTIFIABLE AS SUCH. THE DESIGN IS ALL FLORAL NO LEACHES,DEVIL DOGS OR OTHER TYPICAL, TRADITIONAL BORNEO STYLE DESIGNS SO EVEN IF IT WAS FROM BORNEO I WOULD GUESS THE ONES WHO MADE IT WERE NOT FROM THERE ORIGINALLY. I WOULD GUESS EARLY 1800'S AS TO THE DATE BUT ITS ONLY A GUESS I AM SURE YOU WILL BE BETTER ABLE TO TELL HAVING IT IN HAND AND BEING MUCH MORE EXPERIENCED THAN I. PERHAPS SOMEONE WILL HAVE MORE EXPERIENCE AND CAN IDENTIFY IT BASED ON THE CARVEING OR THE FABRIC, I LEAN TOWARD A PHILIPPINE MORO ORIGIN. JUDGING FROM THE WORKMANSHIP AND CONDITION I WOULD AGREE IT BELONGED TO A HIGH RANKING INDIVIDUAL WHO WAS NOT LIKELY TO USE IT FOR FIGHTING. THE LARGE SIZE OF THE CARVED POMMEL LOOKS LIKE IT WOULD GET IN THE WAY WHEN USING SOME STRIKES, BUT AS I DON'T KNOW THE FIGHTING STYLE FOR THE KAMPILIAN PERHAPS NOT?

IF IT GETS TOO DANGEROUS OVER THERE YOU ARE ALWAYS WELCOME TO GRAB YOUR COLLECTIONS AND COME OVER TO MY PLACE AND HANG OUT UNTILL IT COOLS DOWN

YOU GUYS STAY SAFE AND I HOPE THIS CURRENT CONFLICT SOON ENDS

Rick · 25th July 2006, 09:24 PM

I find the diagonal lines that intersect the center disc on all but one of the illustrations quite interesting and a little puzzling; especially on the example Artzi has shown .

VVV · 25th July 2006, 10:46 PM

The reason no traditional Dayak design is seen on the Kampilans is that it never was a Dayak sword. The Illanun people were Moros from Mindanao who settled quite late in North Borneo. Already in the early 20th C they were mixed with, and became part of, the Bajau tribe. Like the Illanuns the Bajaus are Muslim and have Malay, not Dayak, origin.
So Kampilans were used by the Moros who was living in Borneo.

According to Ivor Evans' field studies (published 1922) almost all of the Moro weapons (Barong, Kris) were imported except maybe some of the Kampilans.

"Most of the villages have a blacksmith, who is capable of turning out very fair knives, spear-heads and other small articles, but the making of waved or straight kris and sundang blades is now a lost art, if indeed such articles were ever made in either district, of which I have no proof: in fact I am rather inclined to think that the two commonest forms of sword to be found in the hands of the Bajaus and Illanuns, the barong or pida, and the sundang, which is locally called kris, were mostly imported from Sulu. The long Illanun sword, the kompilan, may have been made locally to a small extent."

Michael

Here is another resembling Kampilan, collected in Sulawesi.

Ian · 25th July 2006, 11:26 PM

Michael:

I think the pictures you show above from the two references clearly illustrate the similarity in style between Artzi's example and the well provenanced published examples. These shorter hilted forms do seem to be attributable, at least in part, to the N. Borneo muslim group (albeit perhaps translocated from Mindanao). Since we are talking basically of transplanted Moro people, the style of carving may be quite similar to Mindanao, but the shorter hilt seems distinctive to N. Borneo.

Ian.

And then there is this one that Dan Wilke and I found in Manila. Where is this hilt from?

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...achmentid=1107

CharlesS · 25th July 2006, 11:55 PM

Very helpful pics Michael. They really go a long way towards making the N. Borneo point.

Thanks!

VVV · 26th July 2006, 12:27 AM

Thanks Charles and Ian,

Sorry if I overloaded this thread with reference pictures. I just felt that one example wasn't significant enough.

Actually I am not convinced yet myself that those hilts didn't once originate in Mindanao.
Several resembling Kampilans are found in Spanish museums, as well as in Leiden, that has been collected in Mindanao.

Regarding the Spanish museums that's my assumption that they were collected in Mindanao because the rest of the weapons exhibited are from the Philippines and the Spanish never colonised North Borneo.
In Leiden the catalogues have been published so it's easy to trace where the the different Kampilans were collected.

Michael

Spunjer · 26th July 2006, 12:56 AM

Quote:

The reason no traditional Dayak design is seen on the Kampilans is that it never was a Dayak sword. The Illanun people were Moros from Mindanao who settled quite late in North Borneo. Already in the early 20th C they were mixed with, and became part of, the Bajau tribe. Like the Illanuns the Bajaus are Muslim and have Malay, not Dayak, origin.
So Kampilans were used by the Moros who was living in Borneo.

interesting topic. one must understand that those tribes mentioned doesn't recognized the imaginary political lines we now as country. they have an allegiance to a certain group, like a sultanate, rather than a country as a whole. i'm sure you folks know that. so, for the sake of arguement that these tribes resided in north borneo at that point in time; would that weapon then be attributed to north borneo? the reason why i said 'point in time' is because these are nomadic tribes. here are a couple of links:

http://litera1no4.tripod.com/badjao_frame.html
http://library.thinkquest.org/C003235/ilanun.html

i understand there's a 'need' to label such sword a specific area where it came from, to have a provenance, but sometimes it just don't fit, so IMHO, it's better to leave it as it is.

CharlesS · 26th July 2006, 01:12 AM

Michael,

If nothing else, this surely hints at a strong line of cross cultural influences, and while we may never know the exact point of origin, this thread makes of good point of the sword being found outside of what is traditionally thought of as "Moroland".

I think these cross cultural ties and trade offs are one of the most interesting aspects of Indo-Malay weaponry...you see it is kerises, in swords, etc. Just when you think you've seen it all, something will pop up to surprise you and fire up the imagination.

Even the barong Artzi pictured likely had its naga motif "imported" from elsewhere, as it is not a common motif in Moro weapons.

VANDOO · 26th July 2006, 04:29 AM

THE LINK TO THE KAMPILIAN IAN POSTED REPRESENTS WHAT I BELIEVE TO BE THE LARGE SEA EAGLE, NO PROOF UNFORTUNATELY. THE DESIGN IN THE EYE RESEMBLES A PATTERN USED IN DAYAK TATOOS I CAN'T SEE THE OTHER DESIGNS WELL ENOUGH TO TELL IF THEY HAVE ANY DAYAK INFLUENCE. THE MANDAU AND THE KAMPILIAN HAVE A LOT OF SIMULARITIES THE BLADE SHAPE, THE FANCY CARVING AND HAIR ON THE POMMELS. THE MORO AND DAYAK SOCIETYS WERE BOTH GREAT SEA FARERS AND OFTEN WORKED TOGETHER AND SOMETIMES FOUGHT SO INFLUENCES WOULD HAVE BEEN EXCHANGED OVER THE YEARS.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS TOO MANY PICTURES IN A POST ON EDGED WEAPONS

KEEP THEM COMING

zelbone · 26th July 2006, 07:02 PM

I won't dismiss the N. Borneo theory......

But, this is a rather large hilt and would be inconsistent with a shorter N. Borneo form. Sure Artzi's example has a less "gaping-jaw" of the crocodile form ( or swiftlet tail), but this is an oversize danganan hilt. And as mentioned by others here this sword was most likely carried by someone of great importance...or by his sword-bearer....in which case the danganan would be representative of his torogan....not a crocodile jaw or swiftlet tail.

24th July 2006, 08:06 PM	#1
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	Another interesting Moro sword War time here, we spend many hours in the shelter, the business is low, so it is good time to pull out from the drawer few interesting swords to share. Here is another Moro sword, a Kampilan with finely laminated blade and very big carved handle: Blade 29 inches, handle 11 inches long, 8 inches wide beautifully carved, with a tuft of red colored hair. Two close ups on the handle: We seek opinion on origin and age

25th July 2006, 06:23 PM	#7
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	I had a look in two other books and found the following illustrations of Kampilans collected in North Borneo in the 19th C. The first is from Ling Roth, The Natives of Sarawak and British North Borneo, published in 1896. The two other illustrations are from W Hein, Indonesische Schwertgriffe, published in 1899. Michael PS Sorry about the picture quality on the Hein 1 but I only have my mobile phone camera available at the moment. Attached Images

25th July 2006, 10:46 PM	#11
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	The reason no traditional Dayak design is seen on the Kampilans is that it never was a Dayak sword. The Illanun people were Moros from Mindanao who settled quite late in North Borneo. Already in the early 20th C they were mixed with, and became part of, the Bajau tribe. Like the Illanuns the Bajaus are Muslim and have Malay, not Dayak, origin. So Kampilans were used by the Moros who was living in Borneo. According to Ivor Evans' field studies (published 1922) almost all of the Moro weapons (Barong, Kris) were imported except maybe some of the Kampilans. "Most of the villages have a blacksmith, who is capable of turning out very fair knives, spear-heads and other small articles, but the making of waved or straight kris and sundang blades is now a lost art, if indeed such articles were ever made in either district, of which I have no proof: in fact I am rather inclined to think that the two commonest forms of sword to be found in the hands of the Bajaus and Illanuns, the barong or pida, and the sundang, which is locally called kris, were mostly imported from Sulu. The long Illanun sword, the kompilan, may have been made locally to a small extent." Michael Here is another resembling Kampilan, collected in Sulawesi. Attached Images

25th July 2006, 11:26 PM	#12
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Michael: I think the pictures you show above from the two references clearly illustrate the similarity in style between Artzi's example and the well provenanced published examples. These shorter hilted forms do seem to be attributable, at least in part, to the N. Borneo muslim group (albeit perhaps translocated from Mindanao). Since we are talking basically of transplanted Moro people, the style of carving may be quite similar to Mindanao, but the shorter hilt seems distinctive to N. Borneo. Ian. And then there is this one that Dan Wilke and I found in Manila. Where is this hilt from? http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...achmentid=1107 Last edited by Ian; 25th July 2006 at 11:37 PM.

24th July 2006, 11:16 PM	#2
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Artzi, I hope the terror very soon will be stopped so that you can leave your shelter and safely walk the multicultural streets of Haifa again. Very nice Kampilan, did you find it in Europe? My "working theory" is that the Kampilans with less distinct "jaws" are older than the more usual ones with longer, more open, crocodile jaws (or tail of the swiftlet). This based on what I have found in old books and European museum collections. It also seems as if that style were more popular in North Borneo (Sabah). But that could also be because it's further away from the place of origin and that the Kampilans there are older or more old-fashioned in style. In f.i. Among Primitive People in Borneo by Ivor Evans he claims that the trade of weapons in this area from both Brunei and Sulu/Mindanao was common and of course that the Illanun people originally came from Mindanao. Look forward to read some more input on this issue. Michael

25th July 2006, 02:20 AM	#3
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Take care Artzi, I hope peace reigns in the end. The handle carving on the Kampilion is lovely. Re. "we spend many hours in the shelter, the business is low," Sounds like a good time to hold a "special one off, one time only sale" & clear some old stock from the warehouse, perhaps? cheers, Spiral

25th July 2006, 12:08 PM	#4
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	WOW!....just one more magnificent piece. As soon as I saw this I wondered, like VVV, if this piece is from N. Borneo. Just in general observation, I find that some of the finer decorative carving combined with quality blades are attributed to that area. Maybe some of the tribal specialist will add more.

25th July 2006, 05:16 PM	#5
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Great sword. Looked through "from the rainbow's varied hue" for the "tiger stripe" pattern on the textile, but no match. Cato's photo #33 has a kampilan with a large scrolled hilt, not a match, but suggests this sword may have been for a bodyguard of important person. Hard to make out the "sundi" or prongs on the top edge of the blade, from your pic. Does appear to be a variation; but if we trust Cato only shows "Philippine" swords, then it really can't be identified from that, as there are plenty of variations.

25th July 2006, 05:38 PM	#6
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	I agree with Charles and Michael that this one is probably N. Borneo. Van Zonneveld shows some examples in his book from N. Borneo as well as the Philippines, and I think this particular hilt style is more consistent with N. Borneo than Mindanao. The suggestion that this one might have been a datu's weapon or "sword of state" has some credibility too. Beautiful and unusual example of a kampilan. Keep them coming Artzi! Unfortunately, this conflict seems it will go for a while longer. I hope you and your family stay safe through this dangerous time, and that there will not be many more casualties on either side before a solution is reached. Ian.

25th July 2006, 06:34 PM	#8
zelbone Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: VISAYAS and MINDANAO Posts: 169	I would suggest looking more closely at the detailed carving before coming to any conclusions.

25th July 2006, 08:51 PM	#9
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	OH YEAH!!! NOW YOU HAVE GOT MY MOUTH WATERING I DON'T SEE ANY BORNEO INFLUENCE IN THE CARVEING IT LOOKS PURE MORO TO ME. THE SHAPE OF THE CROCODILE HEAD HAS BEEN STYLIZED UNTIL IT IS NO LONGER IDENTIFIABLE AS SUCH. THE DESIGN IS ALL FLORAL NO LEACHES,DEVIL DOGS OR OTHER TYPICAL, TRADITIONAL BORNEO STYLE DESIGNS SO EVEN IF IT WAS FROM BORNEO I WOULD GUESS THE ONES WHO MADE IT WERE NOT FROM THERE ORIGINALLY. I WOULD GUESS EARLY 1800'S AS TO THE DATE BUT ITS ONLY A GUESS I AM SURE YOU WILL BE BETTER ABLE TO TELL HAVING IT IN HAND AND BEING MUCH MORE EXPERIENCED THAN I. PERHAPS SOMEONE WILL HAVE MORE EXPERIENCE AND CAN IDENTIFY IT BASED ON THE CARVEING OR THE FABRIC, I LEAN TOWARD A PHILIPPINE MORO ORIGIN. JUDGING FROM THE WORKMANSHIP AND CONDITION I WOULD AGREE IT BELONGED TO A HIGH RANKING INDIVIDUAL WHO WAS NOT LIKELY TO USE IT FOR FIGHTING. THE LARGE SIZE OF THE CARVED POMMEL LOOKS LIKE IT WOULD GET IN THE WAY WHEN USING SOME STRIKES, BUT AS I DON'T KNOW THE FIGHTING STYLE FOR THE KAMPILIAN PERHAPS NOT? IF IT GETS TOO DANGEROUS OVER THERE YOU ARE ALWAYS WELCOME TO GRAB YOUR COLLECTIONS AND COME OVER TO MY PLACE AND HANG OUT UNTILL IT COOLS DOWN YOU GUYS STAY SAFE AND I HOPE THIS CURRENT CONFLICT SOON ENDS

25th July 2006, 09:24 PM	#10
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I find the diagonal lines that intersect the center disc on all but one of the illustrations quite interesting and a little puzzling; especially on the example Artzi has shown .

25th July 2006, 11:55 PM	#13
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Very helpful pics Michael. They really go a long way towards making the N. Borneo point. Thanks!

26th July 2006, 12:27 AM	#14
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks Charles and Ian, Sorry if I overloaded this thread with reference pictures. I just felt that one example wasn't significant enough. Actually I am not convinced yet myself that those hilts didn't once originate in Mindanao. Several resembling Kampilans are found in Spanish museums, as well as in Leiden, that has been collected in Mindanao. Regarding the Spanish museums that's my assumption that they were collected in Mindanao because the rest of the weapons exhibited are from the Philippines and the Spanish never colonised North Borneo. In Leiden the catalogues have been published so it's easy to trace where the the different Kampilans were collected. Michael

26th July 2006, 01:12 AM	#16
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Michael, If nothing else, this surely hints at a strong line of cross cultural influences, and while we may never know the exact point of origin, this thread makes of good point of the sword being found outside of what is traditionally thought of as "Moroland". I think these cross cultural ties and trade offs are one of the most interesting aspects of Indo-Malay weaponry...you see it is kerises, in swords, etc. Just when you think you've seen it all, something will pop up to surprise you and fire up the imagination. Even the barong Artzi pictured likely had its naga motif "imported" from elsewhere, as it is not a common motif in Moro weapons.

26th July 2006, 04:29 AM	#17
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE LINK TO THE KAMPILIAN IAN POSTED REPRESENTS WHAT I BELIEVE TO BE THE LARGE SEA EAGLE, NO PROOF UNFORTUNATELY. THE DESIGN IN THE EYE RESEMBLES A PATTERN USED IN DAYAK TATOOS I CAN'T SEE THE OTHER DESIGNS WELL ENOUGH TO TELL IF THEY HAVE ANY DAYAK INFLUENCE. THE MANDAU AND THE KAMPILIAN HAVE A LOT OF SIMULARITIES THE BLADE SHAPE, THE FANCY CARVING AND HAIR ON THE POMMELS. THE MORO AND DAYAK SOCIETYS WERE BOTH GREAT SEA FARERS AND OFTEN WORKED TOGETHER AND SOMETIMES FOUGHT SO INFLUENCES WOULD HAVE BEEN EXCHANGED OVER THE YEARS. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS TOO MANY PICTURES IN A POST ON EDGED WEAPONS KEEP THEM COMING

26th July 2006, 07:02 PM	#18
zelbone Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: VISAYAS and MINDANAO Posts: 169	I won't dismiss the N. Borneo theory...... But, this is a rather large hilt and would be inconsistent with a shorter N. Borneo form. Sure Artzi's example has a less "gaping-jaw" of the crocodile form ( or swiftlet tail), but this is an oversize danganan hilt. And as mentioned by others here this sword was most likely carried by someone of great importance...or by his sword-bearer....in which case the danganan would be representative of his torogan....not a crocodile jaw or swiftlet tail.