2 Javanese krisses

Paul B. · 29th February 2020, 12:27 PM

Hi,

These 2 blades (in Djogjakarta dress) are coming my way. Pics from seller.
Attracted by the elegant blades and wonder what dapur we see.
It is a 7 luk and a 3 luk (usually called Jangkung). The last strech of the 7 luk is quite straight (I know this feature is present in a Megantara blade but there is no further similarity).
Pamor is standard Beras wutah of Ngulit semangka?
Hope anybody will enlight me.

Marcokeris · 29th February 2020, 02:09 PM

layers pamor (from pic) seems Beras Wutah

Jean · 29th February 2020, 02:53 PM

5 luks and not 3?

This dapur could be identified as Balebang according to the EK.

Marcokeris · 29th February 2020, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

5 luks and not 3?

This dapur could be identified as Balebang according to the EK.

Yes you are right Jean ...also I see 5 luks.... but dapur is not Urap Urap?

Paul B. · 29th February 2020, 04:59 PM

Somehow it troubles me to count the faint luk.
Left is 7 luk (or 6 but then luk 7 is worn?).
Right one 3 luk?
Which is the Balebang then Jean?

David · 29th February 2020, 05:46 PM

Paul, i see a 7 luk keris on the left and a 5 luk keris on the right. A faint luk is still a luk and keris always have an odd number of luk even if time has worn its obvious completion away.

David · 29th February 2020, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul B.

Which is the Balebang then Jean?

i tend to doubt that either of your keris are dhapur Balebang.

Jean · 29th February 2020, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Paul, i see a 7 luk keris on the left and a 5 luk keris on the right. A faint luk is still a luk and keris always have an odd number of luk even if time has worn its obvious completion away.

I agree with David. According to the EK there is a dapur Balebang type with 5 luks incuding a kembang kacang, lambe gajah, pejetan, tikel alis, twin sogokan, and sraweyan, but it is not mentioned in the books Dhapur and Keris Jawa. Both blades do not exactly meet any of the Surakarta standard dhapur types.

Mickey the Finn · 1st March 2020, 08:14 AM

If I may contribute my two cents worth: in my unlearned and inexperienced opinion, my first impression of the keris in the middle photo is that the luk all have a certain "straightness and angularity"; there is no smoothly flowing, graceful curvature, to my eye. I haven't yet had a look at the ricikan, but if and/or when I do so, I suspect they will either confirm or not confirm a hypothesis I've formed about the "angular straightness" of the luk. Until then, it might be best not to "put my foot in it" any deeper than I already have, or to go out any further on an untried limb.

Paul B. · 1st March 2020, 12:27 PM

At my PC modem there is no 'middle' picture (we have had this discussion before). So you mean the 5 luk kris.
Luk kemba (so faint flowing) yes, but angular ?? I would not call 'm that way.

Mickey the Finn · 3rd March 2020, 11:40 AM

Yes, the five luk keris is the one I was referring to. Sometimes I'm suspicious without cause. Sometimes I'm overly trusting without any reason to be so. Two separate instances comes to mind when I took something for granted, or made a baseless assumption. After taking delivery of the articles, I discovered that things which I had assumed or taken for granted were not, in fact, so. On neither occasion did I say anything about the matter, because I was aware that I'd not adhered to what might be considered the two cardinal rules for the buyer (of anything): 1) Ask questions first. 2) Buyer beware.
"Fabricación nacional": allows the buyer to deceive himself.
If the buyer does not ask, "Manufactured in what nation"? he has no business complaining if he finds a label that says "Made in China" instead of the "Hecho en chile" which he expected. It's possible the vendor might lie outright if asked a direct question.
About 26 years ago I was in a store shopping for a certain article. The shopkeeper informed me of a heavily discounted model. My first question was, "What's wrong with it"? The shopkeeper denied that anything was wrong with it, and appeared offended. I bought the article, and 26 years later, I still haven't found a single thing wrong with it.
I've acquired keris billed as antique which I was (and still am) convinced were made no earlier than two years before I acquired them. One was marketed as a Balinese dhapur Balebang, with a kembang kacang about halfway down the wilah. It doesn't fit any dhapur in any book I've ever consulted. I bought it because I thought it was interesting, and I have no regrets. If anything is marketed as having belonged to "a senior abdi dalem of the Solokarta Court", that's a different matter altogether, and I'll pass on it, sight unseen.

Paul B. · 3rd March 2020, 07:01 PM

Hmmm, noted with thanks but what is the relationship with the 2 krisses?
Seller did not have any clue (you can see the wrong straight position of the hilt at both krisses and the third he sold to somebody else) and is not a kris seller ...and no 'to good to be true stories' involved.

David · 3rd March 2020, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mickey the Finn

I've acquired keris billed as antique which I was (and still am) convinced were made no earlier than two years before I acquired them. One was marketed as a Balinese dhapur Balebang, with a kembang kacang about halfway down the wilah. It doesn't fit any dhapur in any book I've ever consulted. I bought it because I thought it was interesting, and I have no regrets. If anything is marketed as having belonged to "a senior abdi dalem of the Solokarta Court", that's a different matter altogether, and I'll pass on it, sight unseen.

Mickey, the keris you describe that was sold as a Bali dhapur Balebang sounds a bit like Kebo Giri/Mahesa Kanthong. If so it is very much a dhapur that can be found in books and pakem. If this is not the dhapur then perhaps you could post some photos and maybe someone here could help you identify it.
BTW, i too would be skeptical of anyone claiming that a keris they were selling was once owned by "a senior abdi dalem of the Solokarta Court", mostly because there is no court i know of called "Solokarta". It is either "Surakarta" or "Solo".

See the dhapur in the middle of this illustration. It might match your mystery dhapur.

29th February 2020, 12:27 PM	#1
Paul B. Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 205	2 Javanese krisses Hi, These 2 blades (in Djogjakarta dress) are coming my way. Pics from seller. Attracted by the elegant blades and wonder what dapur we see. It is a 7 luk and a 3 luk (usually called Jangkung). The last strech of the 7 luk is quite straight (I know this feature is present in a Megantara blade but there is no further similarity). Pamor is standard Beras wutah of Ngulit semangka? Hope anybody will enlight me. Attached Images

1st March 2020, 12:27 PM	#10
Paul B. Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 205	At my PC modem there is no 'middle' picture (we have had this discussion before). So you mean the 5 luk kris. Luk kemba (so faint flowing) yes, but angular ?? I would not call 'm that way. Last edited by Paul B.; 1st March 2020 at 03:04 PM.

29th February 2020, 02:09 PM	#2
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	layers pamor (from pic) seems Beras Wutah

29th February 2020, 02:53 PM	#3
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	5 luks and not 3? This dapur could be identified as Balebang according to the EK.

29th February 2020, 04:59 PM	#5
Paul B. Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 205	Somehow it troubles me to count the faint luk. Left is 7 luk (or 6 but then luk 7 is worn?). Right one 3 luk? Which is the Balebang then Jean?

29th February 2020, 05:46 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	Paul, i see a 7 luk keris on the left and a 5 luk keris on the right. A faint luk is still a luk and keris always have an odd number of luk even if time has worn its obvious completion away.

1st March 2020, 08:14 AM	#9
Mickey the Finn Member Join Date: Dec 2017 Posts: 90	If I may contribute my two cents worth: in my unlearned and inexperienced opinion, my first impression of the keris in the middle photo is that the luk all have a certain "straightness and angularity"; there is no smoothly flowing, graceful curvature, to my eye. I haven't yet had a look at the ricikan, but if and/or when I do so, I suspect they will either confirm or not confirm a hypothesis I've formed about the "angular straightness" of the luk. Until then, it might be best not to "put my foot in it" any deeper than I already have, or to go out any further on an untried limb.

3rd March 2020, 11:40 AM	#11
Mickey the Finn Member Join Date: Dec 2017 Posts: 90	Yes, the five luk keris is the one I was referring to. Sometimes I'm suspicious without cause. Sometimes I'm overly trusting without any reason to be so. Two separate instances comes to mind when I took something for granted, or made a baseless assumption. After taking delivery of the articles, I discovered that things which I had assumed or taken for granted were not, in fact, so. On neither occasion did I say anything about the matter, because I was aware that I'd not adhered to what might be considered the two cardinal rules for the buyer (of anything): 1) Ask questions first. 2) Buyer beware. "Fabricación nacional": allows the buyer to deceive himself. If the buyer does not ask, "Manufactured in what nation"? he has no business complaining if he finds a label that says "Made in China" instead of the "Hecho en chile" which he expected. It's possible the vendor might lie outright if asked a direct question. About 26 years ago I was in a store shopping for a certain article. The shopkeeper informed me of a heavily discounted model. My first question was, "What's wrong with it"? The shopkeeper denied that anything was wrong with it, and appeared offended. I bought the article, and 26 years later, I still haven't found a single thing wrong with it. I've acquired keris billed as antique which I was (and still am) convinced were made no earlier than two years before I acquired them. One was marketed as a Balinese dhapur Balebang, with a kembang kacang about halfway down the wilah. It doesn't fit any dhapur in any book I've ever consulted. I bought it because I thought it was interesting, and I have no regrets. If anything is marketed as having belonged to "a senior abdi dalem of the Solokarta Court", that's a different matter altogether, and I'll pass on it, sight unseen.

3rd March 2020, 07:01 PM	#12
Paul B. Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 205	Hmmm, noted with thanks but what is the relationship with the 2 krisses? Seller did not have any clue (you can see the wrong straight position of the hilt at both krisses and the third he sold to somebody else) and is not a kris seller ...and no 'to good to be true stories' involved.