Another Moro sword for ID

ariel · 2nd November 2005, 03:30 AM

This does not look like a classic Barong to me.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...3146&rd=1&rd=1
What is it?

Battara · 2nd November 2005, 06:29 AM

I'd say a local thing made for sale in the market.

kai · 2nd November 2005, 02:36 PM

IMVHO it looks like a recent Maranao creation partly inspired by a Barong (aimed at a market frequented by travellers rather than Tausug folks

). The handguard and the inlaid dots seem to be common give-aways.

Ian · 2nd November 2005, 04:07 PM

I agree with kai. Probably recent Maranao work. There may also be some Visayan influence reflected in the guard and suspension system for the scabbard.

Ian.

Freddy · 2nd November 2005, 08:50 PM

I know far too little to make any comment on this piece, but what about this one : http://cgi.benl.ebay.be/ws/eBayISAPI...MEWN%3AIT&rd=1

It's Moro and apparently a keris blade.

Freddy

Rick · 2nd November 2005, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy

I know far too little to make any comment on this piece, but what about this one : http://cgi.benl.ebay.be/ws/eBayISAPI...MEWN%3AIT&rd=1

It's Moro and apparently a keris blade.

Freddy

I'm doubting this is a Moro kris blade .

Tim Simmons · 2nd November 2005, 09:37 PM

I now little of these things, so I need things explained. From what I can see Freddy has acquired an old blade and the handle appears contemporary to the blade, at a very good price I might add. To my limited knowledge it does not look like a tourist item, yet to my untrained eye the blade does look a little unusual especially around the hilt. This weapon looks a lot older and indeed used rather than the one that started the thread. I am waiting to be enlightened. Tim

Rick · 2nd November 2005, 10:44 PM

I doubt the blade is that old ; post 30's or much later .
The details at the base of the blade are kris-like but basically look like hacksaw cuts .
I've never seen a Moro blade that has detailing like this .
Possibly this blade is made after the Moro style .

Now a Moro tourist blade has some slight resemblance .
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3.../20cdetail.jpg
Still it looks like a Moro blade .
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...ad/20cfull.jpg

Battara · 3rd November 2005, 02:12 AM

AS we have mentioned before on this forum, it is a Lumad mix. The hilt is T'boli and the kris blade is probably also made by them copied to some degree from the Moro.

zamboanga · 3rd November 2005, 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I doubt the blade is that old ; post 30's or much later .
The details at the base of the blade are kris-like but basically look like hacksaw cuts .
I've never seen a Moro blade that has detailing like this .
Possibly this blade is made after the Moro style .

Now a Moro tourist blade has some slight resemblance .
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3.../20cdetail.jpg
Still it looks like a Moro blade .
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...ad/20cfull.jpg

The first picture is a classic tourist item. Made out of galvanized iron (G.I.) pipe split open using acetylene torch. Why G.I. pipe? it's cheap and easier to etch those lines on. A finished piece like this is sold at the local (Zamboanga) market for about $20-40.

kai · 3rd November 2005, 03:20 AM

From my POV Freddy got a nice blade, especially considering the price. As already explained it's not Moro though and I'd also won't call this a kris (nor keris). It's certainly inspired by the Moro kris (remember these peoples are neighbors) but those details on the gangya area would IMVHO never be done by a traditional Moro panday (nor within any other keris culture - wether Hindu or Muslim). There have been quite a few of these non-Moro blades lately and while the details vary quite a bit they always look wrong/weird if compared with legitimate Moro pieces. Some even have a notch copying the elefant trunk but may omit the lower lip or are otherwise quite obviously non-Moro. Of course, this isn't a "bad thing" (tm) and these blades deserve to be collected in their own right - especially if they appear to be original, complete pieces. There was a fairly recent thread here and I'll try to post pics of some more examples in there tomorrow.

There also have been a lot of Moro-made kris blades with non-Moro hilts for sale. While some of these are certainly genuine pieces (trade blades or captured and subsequently refitted), most appear to be recent, "forced" marriages. I can't help to think of these as intended to peak collector's curiosity and to sell off blades of lower quality with a more gaudy hilt. Excessive pitch or even glue seems to be a dead give-away for contemporary manipulation/refitting (traditional artisans were apparently more careful a century ago). However, this clue is often visible with other hilts rather than with T'boli or Bagobo brass hilts (due to their construction).

Regards,
Kai

Rick · 3rd November 2005, 04:55 AM

So Tim , are you now enlightened ?

Tim Simmons · 3rd November 2005, 07:44 PM

Yes a little more in the know but a few more pictures to help illustrate the differences would have been helpfull. Thanks Tim

zelbone · 3rd November 2005, 07:49 PM

....just call it a sundang to be safe

kai · 3rd November 2005, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

a few more pictures to help illustrate the differences would have been helpfull

I'm working on it, Tim!

Regards,
Kai

Rick · 3rd November 2005, 09:03 PM

I'll bet a site search for 'moro kris' would probably produce mucho images too Tim .

Tim Simmons · 3rd November 2005, 09:18 PM

Hello Rick, the search was disappointing, information largely from people that want to sell you something. There is nothing like being shown as in a lesson

. Tim

Rick · 3rd November 2005, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Hello Rick, the search was disappointing, information largely from people that want to sell you something. There is nothing like being shown as in a lesson

. Tim

Really ?
In the Forum archives ?

Tim Simmons · 3rd November 2005, 10:52 PM

How dumb of me, it is late in the evening hear and wine has a tendency to fuddle the mind. The archive is very informative on this subject. Thanks Tim.

Rick · 3rd November 2005, 11:05 PM

Cocktail Hour is rapidly approaching here on the East Coast ; I look forward to joining you soon in a little fuddlement .

slovak · 6th November 2005, 06:31 AM

Dear all,

In my opinion that is surely a Moro Kris. Made in abundance since early 1900's up to today. Moro kris usually has a low quality metal and the blade simply by hammering any steel into a blade. Perhaps their pande lacks the skill to make a real keris. Some however have fancy dresses to make it look valuable. To me, a real keris must incorporate real skill to make it valuable not just from a piece of hammered scrap metal. Unfortunately western collectors had some obsession on this type of kris made popular among themselves to help the poor pandes of the Philiphines. Perhaps it’s their desperation for a living drives them to do such things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zelbone

....just call it a sundang to be safe

Zelbone,

Some people call this type of keris a Sundang. It is the same thing, just a difference in terms of language. You can study other languages in the keris nations to have a better understanding. Sometimes having too little knowledge and so much to talk about can be a dangerous thing.

Spunjer · 6th November 2005, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Dear all,

In my opinion that is surely a Moro Kris. Made in abundance since early 1900's up to today. Moro kris usually has a low quality metal and the blade simply by hammering any steel into a blade. Perhaps their pande lacks the skill to make a real keris. Some however have fancy dresses to make it look valuable. To me, a real keris must incorporate real skill to make it valuable not just from a piece of hammered scrap metal. Unfortunately western collectors had some obsession on this type of kris made popular among themselves to help the poor pandes of the Philiphines. Perhaps it’s their desperation for a living drives them to do such things.

would love to know your source on this...

Quote:

Zelbone,

Some people call this type of keris a Sundang. It is the same thing, just a difference in terms of language. You can study other languages in the keris nations to have a better understanding. Sometimes having too little knowledge and so much to talk about can be a dangerous thing.

ouch! easy there, big boy, lol. me think you should get to know the person first before making statements like that...

LabanTayo · 6th November 2005, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slovak

Zelbone,

Some people call this type of keris a Sundang. It is the same thing, just a difference in terms of language. You can study other languages in the keris nations to have a better understanding. Sometimes having too little knowledge and so much to talk about can be a dangerous thing.

Slovak,
If that is your educated opinion, then why are you spelling it "keris" ?????
We are talking about a Filipino sword, not a Malay/Indo keris. Considering the language they use in the Moroland, shouldn't it be "kris, kalis or sundang"?

Or should we just call it "bolo or talibong"??

slovak · 6th November 2005, 02:12 PM

Hi Laban Tayo,

Yes, it is the same keris, kris, kalis and sundang. Then why does Mr. Zelbone suggested that it should be called a Sundang? Is it because of its inferior quality? Does the so called "Moro Kris" term is for the 'better' (if any) ones? Perhaps our honourable Mr. Zelbone has the answer.

Spunjer · 6th November 2005, 03:18 PM

lol, let the trolling begin...

Quote:

Some philiphines migrated to other countries to be karaoke singer just to make a living. Perhaps one of them can make the glorious "moro kris". Its not hard, u have to have a furnance, some left over steel, hammer, chicel and grinder to make the luks. U can examine the kerisses on your cupboard and see.

*walks to the cupboard and inspect my 'kerisses'...*

yup, you're right; i do see the 'chicel' marks on it. now where did i place my karaoke mic?

Rick · 6th November 2005, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

lol, let the trolling begin...

*walks to the cupboard and inspect my 'kerisses'...*

yup, you're right; i do see the 'chicel' marks on it. now where did i place my karaoke mic?

Spunjer , they're having auditions Fri. nite at the Chillicothe Holiday Inn .

It's obvious that English is not Mr. 'Slovak's' first language so let's cut him some slack on that ; and ask him to provide references to back up his statements .

Spunjer · 6th November 2005, 03:50 PM

rick, im so there...

nechesh · 6th November 2005, 04:36 PM

Well, maybe Mr. Slovak has had a deprived edged weapons childhood.

Perhaps some of our members who own some of the more exquisite examples of Moro kris might be willing to post them here for Mr. Slovaks edification.
Your other remarks, Mr. Slovak, which seem to me to border on racism speak to a deprivation in education that i am unwilling to address here. I am happy to see that so far our members of Filippino origin have taken this as a laughing matter, but it doesn't amuse me one bit. I trust you will think before you type and tone it down a bit in the future.

slovak · 6th November 2005, 06:01 PM

It is good to see u can take this lightly. Yes, english is not my mother tounge, but at least i understand it unlike u to my language friends.

Perhaps thats why your remarks are very cocky. U should perhaps rethink it rather than asking other people to follow your way. People can "fallow" your ways, but there must be some tolerence. Get it?

Reference? who need references here? Help friends!!! I got trashed and need some backing up.

Oh.... happy karaoke'ing'.

p/s: opps.. spelling mistake. The word "fallow" should be replaced with follow.

nechesh · 6th November 2005, 06:25 PM

Though i am not quite sure just what your language is, my friend, i am willing to bet that there is more than one forum member who speaks it fluently. I think you under estimate us greatly, but that is your problem really.
Perhaps you would care to enlighten us as to the reasons for you obvious anger and arrogance since you seem so unwilling to back up any of your "knowledge" about keris or Moro kris.

2nd November 2005, 03:30 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Another Moro sword for ID This does not look like a classic Barong to me. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...3146&rd=1&rd=1 What is it?

2nd November 2005, 08:50 PM	#5
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	What about this one ? I know far too little to make any comment on this piece, but what about this one : http://cgi.benl.ebay.be/ws/eBayISAPI...MEWN%3AIT&rd=1 It's Moro and apparently a keris blade. Freddy

6th November 2005, 02:12 PM	#24
slovak Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 5	Hi Laban Tayo, Yes, it is the same keris, kris, kalis and sundang. Then why does Mr. Zelbone suggested that it should be called a Sundang? Is it because of its inferior quality? Does the so called "Moro Kris" term is for the 'better' (if any) ones? Perhaps our honourable Mr. Zelbone has the answer. Last edited by Ian; 6th November 2005 at 11:27 PM. Reason: Removal of offensive comments

2nd November 2005, 06:29 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	I'd say a local thing made for sale in the market.

2nd November 2005, 02:36 PM	#3
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	IMVHO it looks like a recent Maranao creation partly inspired by a Barong (aimed at a market frequented by travellers rather than Tausug folks ). The handguard and the inlaid dots seem to be common give-aways.

2nd November 2005, 04:07 PM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,203	I agree with kai. Probably recent Maranao work. There may also be some Visayan influence reflected in the guard and suspension system for the scabbard. Ian.

2nd November 2005, 09:37 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I now little of these things, so I need things explained. From what I can see Freddy has acquired an old blade and the handle appears contemporary to the blade, at a very good price I might add. To my limited knowledge it does not look like a tourist item, yet to my untrained eye the blade does look a little unusual especially around the hilt. This weapon looks a lot older and indeed used rather than the one that started the thread. I am waiting to be enlightened. Tim

2nd November 2005, 10:44 PM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I doubt the blade is that old ; post 30's or much later . The details at the base of the blade are kris-like but basically look like hacksaw cuts . I've never seen a Moro blade that has detailing like this . Possibly this blade is made after the Moro style . Now a Moro tourist blade has some slight resemblance . http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3.../20cdetail.jpg Still it looks like a Moro blade . http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...ad/20cfull.jpg

3rd November 2005, 02:12 AM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	AS we have mentioned before on this forum, it is a Lumad mix. The hilt is T'boli and the kris blade is probably also made by them copied to some degree from the Moro.

3rd November 2005, 03:20 AM	#11
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	From my POV Freddy got a nice blade, especially considering the price. As already explained it's not Moro though and I'd also won't call this a kris (nor keris). It's certainly inspired by the Moro kris (remember these peoples are neighbors) but those details on the gangya area would IMVHO never be done by a traditional Moro panday (nor within any other keris culture - wether Hindu or Muslim). There have been quite a few of these non-Moro blades lately and while the details vary quite a bit they always look wrong/weird if compared with legitimate Moro pieces. Some even have a notch copying the elefant trunk but may omit the lower lip or are otherwise quite obviously non-Moro. Of course, this isn't a "bad thing" (tm) and these blades deserve to be collected in their own right - especially if they appear to be original, complete pieces. There was a fairly recent thread here and I'll try to post pics of some more examples in there tomorrow. There also have been a lot of Moro-made kris blades with non-Moro hilts for sale. While some of these are certainly genuine pieces (trade blades or captured and subsequently refitted), most appear to be recent, "forced" marriages. I can't help to think of these as intended to peak collector's curiosity and to sell off blades of lower quality with a more gaudy hilt. Excessive pitch or even glue seems to be a dead give-away for contemporary manipulation/refitting (traditional artisans were apparently more careful a century ago). However, this clue is often visible with other hilts rather than with T'boli or Bagobo brass hilts (due to their construction). Regards, Kai

3rd November 2005, 04:55 AM	#12
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	So Tim , are you now enlightened ?

3rd November 2005, 07:44 PM	#13
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Yes a little more in the know but a few more pictures to help illustrate the differences would have been helpfull. Thanks Tim

3rd November 2005, 07:49 PM	#14
zelbone Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: VISAYAS and MINDANAO Posts: 169	....just call it a sundang to be safe

3rd November 2005, 09:03 PM	#16
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I'll bet a site search for 'moro kris' would probably produce mucho images too Tim .

3rd November 2005, 09:18 PM	#17
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Hello Rick, the search was disappointing, information largely from people that want to sell you something. There is nothing like being shown as in a lesson . Tim

3rd November 2005, 10:52 PM	#19
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	How dumb of me, it is late in the evening hear and wine has a tendency to fuddle the mind. The archive is very informative on this subject. Thanks Tim.

3rd November 2005, 11:05 PM	#20
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Cocktail Hour is rapidly approaching here on the East Coast ; I look forward to joining you soon in a little fuddlement .

6th November 2005, 03:50 PM	#27
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	rick, im so there...

6th November 2005, 04:36 PM	#28
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Well, maybe Mr. Slovak has had a deprived edged weapons childhood. Perhaps some of our members who own some of the more exquisite examples of Moro kris might be willing to post them here for Mr. Slovaks edification. Your other remarks, Mr. Slovak, which seem to me to border on racism speak to a deprivation in education that i am unwilling to address here. I am happy to see that so far our members of Filippino origin have taken this as a laughing matter, but it doesn't amuse me one bit. I trust you will think before you type and tone it down a bit in the future.

6th November 2005, 06:01 PM	#29
slovak Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 5	It is good to see u can take this lightly. Yes, english is not my mother tounge, but at least i understand it unlike u to my language friends. Perhaps thats why your remarks are very cocky. U should perhaps rethink it rather than asking other people to follow your way. People can "fallow" your ways, but there must be some tolerence. Get it? Reference? who need references here? Help friends!!! I got trashed and need some backing up. Oh.... happy karaoke'ing'. p/s: opps.. spelling mistake. The word "fallow" should be replaced with follow.

6th November 2005, 06:25 PM	#30
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Though i am not quite sure just what your language is, my friend, i am willing to bet that there is more than one forum member who speaks it fluently. I think you under estimate us greatly, but that is your problem really. Perhaps you would care to enlighten us as to the reasons for you obvious anger and arrogance since you seem so unwilling to back up any of your "knowledge" about keris or Moro kris.