Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury
FAQ Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 7th September 2008, 06:42 PM   #1
celtan
Member
 
celtan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: PR, USA
Posts: 679
Default Blunderbuss

Hi Guys,

My first posting

ID? Let's see whether we agree...





celtan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th September 2008, 08:30 PM   #2
Rick
Vikingsword Staff
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,290
Smile

Welcome celtan .
Things are a bit slow on the weekends around here .

Glad to have you onboard .
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th September 2008, 11:11 PM   #3
celtan
Member
 
celtan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: PR, USA
Posts: 679
Default

Thank you kindly, Rick

This forum has an incredible potential. I checked the nature of the postings, and there seems to be a lot of goodwill among the participants, and a willingness to share knowledge with no strings attached.

Glad to be aboard, I intend to invite over some of my friends who share our interest in weapons collecting.

Best

Manuel Luis Iravedra

BTW: I sent you an attachment with my avatar, already prepared, if you can help me actualize same, I'd very much appreciate it.
celtan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th September 2008, 09:32 PM   #4
FenrisWolf
Member
 
FenrisWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 181
Default

Dang! I hope you get answers on this piece, as I have a similar barrel and fragmentary furniture (stock is cracked and missing the lock and all fittings except buttplate) that I want to restore with modern furniture. Mine came from England and the opening in the stock fits the Tower lock pattern, but beyond that I know little about the piece.
FenrisWolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th September 2008, 11:48 PM   #5
fernando
(deceased)
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
Default

Yes, it smells British. However British firearms practically allways bear proofmarks.
But i am far from being an expert and i am not at home, to consult my (insifnificant) library. Can only check it next week.
Meanwhile, can't you get brighter pictures of the barrel breech ... and a close up of the lock ? No Tower mark on the lock plate behind the cock, or a crown in front of it ?
Case not yet closed.
Fernando
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th September 2008, 09:24 PM   #6
celtan
Member
 
celtan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: PR, USA
Posts: 679
Default

I don't think it's a brit. Their BBs are longer in barrel. The shape of the stock suggests to me its Belgian, French, or Spanish. The a la mode lock was also used in Spain, as frequently as the Miguelete, or more. The brass barrel suggests a Naval weapon, a boarding gun. There's also the fact that I got it with the miguelete pistol shown in another post, and both their chargers/rods are virtually identical...

more pics AR













celtan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th September 2008, 03:28 AM   #7
celtan
Member
 
celtan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: PR, USA
Posts: 679
Default

Hi Guys,

I was reading yesterday the book of "Small arms of the Spanish Treasure Fleets" and it states that the Spanish never made Blunderbusses in Brass. So either they are wrong, or this one is either English, Belgian or French...

Toots

Manolo
celtan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st October 2008, 02:35 AM   #8
Ed
Member
 
Ed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 237
Default

Dunno. The proportions look off for a Brit weapon. Also, the one thing the Brits do do is make sure things are marked.
Ed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st October 2008, 03:08 AM   #9
celtan
Member
 
celtan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: PR, USA
Posts: 679
Default

I agree Ed.

There's a shield with four chambers mark right atop the brass barrel, but nothing much can be made out of it.

What do you think, Fer, ¿portugués?

Is Matchlock around? Michael seems to be the guy to ask.

Manuel


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed
Dunno. The proportions look off for a Brit weapon. Also, the one thing the Brits do do is make sure things are marked.
celtan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st October 2008, 04:57 AM   #10
Atlantia
Member
 
Atlantia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Sharp end
Posts: 2,928
Default

Hi all!
Back again :-)
Could it be an east India Co piece?
Its a nice 'stubby' little beast!

Have you taken it to bits to search for hidden markings?

Regards
Gene
Atlantia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st October 2008, 06:14 AM   #11
kahnjar1
Member
 
kahnjar1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND
Posts: 2,739
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlantia
Hi all!
Back again :-)
Could it be an east India Co piece?
Its a nice 'stubby' little beast!

Have you taken it to bits to search for hidden markings?

Regards
Gene
Unlikely to be East India Co unless stamped with their mark. To me the stock LOOKS British, but the barrel looks more Turkish???? There is a thing called a KNEE PISTOL used from horseback, and resembling a short Blunderbus which was a Turkish weapon. Maybe this is one?? OR..............
Is the stock British, and had an eastern barrel added at some later stage?
The plot thickens!
Regards Stuart
kahnjar1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st October 2008, 12:38 PM   #12
celtan
Member
 
celtan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: PR, USA
Posts: 679
Default

Not Turkish, the stock is all wrong for them. And they are characteristically more decorated. Of course, that applies to the ones I have seen so far.

Perhaps there were exceptions, but this one doesn't feel Turkish at all...

I read somewhere that europeans used brass blunderbusses, often at sea. They could only load lead shot, since anything else (as the stories went about stones, bolts, etc...) would destroy the softer barrel. Another advantage the significantly costlier barrels had was is that they didn't rust, and when they exploded from overuse or overload, they usually only deformed or split.

OTOH, overstressed iron barrels would explode like a grenade

And no, I haven't yet dismounted the lock. Will soon do.

Toots

: )

M
celtan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st October 2008, 06:35 PM   #13
kahnjar1
Member
 
kahnjar1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND
Posts: 2,739
Default

I agree that this is not Turkish, but my suggestion was that POSSIBLY a British stock had been (re)mated with an eastern barrel, thereby creating a "kneepistol"
Regards S
kahnjar1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st October 2008, 07:38 PM   #14
fernando
(deceased)
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by celtan
... What do you think, Fer, ¿portugués? ...
You almost made me a name ... Fertuguês ( Fertuguese) .
I don't know. When i came back home, the other day, i thaught i would locate something of the kind in my ( hoping to be) library but, instead, i only spotted a couple specimens with a much more moderate barrel. This one of yours has quite a trumpet one, half way to a grenade thrower ... pass the exageration .
Yeah, the stock looks British, but could also only be 'a la British', made anywhere else. Perhaps we could say the same about the lock ?.
Why couldn't this be a Belgium setup ... or even a Turkish cocktail, as sugested by Stu, what do i know?
French not likely ... again marks and smith name missing
Surprises might pop up when (if) you decide to dismount the barrel. Often you don't see any proof marks showing off, while smiths fancy punctioning their symbols underneath the barrel.
Hope you don't mind, i'm checking a couple sources, to hear their opinnion.
A sus ordenes.
Fernando
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st October 2008, 09:44 PM   #15
celtan
Member
 
celtan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: PR, USA
Posts: 679
Default

I saw a picture of one just like mine in a local National Parks Services Library's book, IDed as european. They wouldn't allow me photocopying the page, arguing potential copyright infringement issues. I explained to them it didn't apply for this case, but apparently they don't know the applying laws, and don't care to learn them either...

I have seen several spanish blunderbusses of identical design, but in iron. In fact, the stock design is identical to my flintlock fusil Modelo 1792. That's the reason I suspect it's either Belgian or French. Although the four chambered shield atop the barrel is very similar to that of Spain, with a Crown sitting on top...



celtan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st October 2008, 09:54 PM   #16
celtan
Member
 
celtan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: PR, USA
Posts: 679
Default

Actually, I envy you the availability of Fer as your potential nom-de-guerre.

In pre-roman Galicia, Fer meant Fire. In post-Roman Galicia, it meant Iron. That's the base for the Her-nandez/ Fer-nandez last name. Just as the Her-rrero / Ferrero (The [H] was pronounced lat. [F]/eng. [PH]). In pre-roman Galicia, Iron wss Ir/Er, the basis for Iron and Ehre...

So Fer-nando would mean Fire / Iron something or other...

Have to Love phylology....

: )


Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
You almost made me a name ... Fertuguês ( Fertuguese) .
I don't know. When i came back home, the other day, i thaught i would locate something of the kind in my ( hoping to be) library but, instead, i only spotted a couple specimens with a much more moderate barrel. This one of yours has quite a trumpet one, half way to a grenade thrower ... pass the exageration .
Yeah, the stock looks British, but could also only be 'a la British', made anywhere else. Perhaps we could say the same about the lock ?.
Why couldn't this be a Belgium setup ... or even a Turkish cocktail, as sugested by Stu, what do i know?
French not likely ... again marks and smith name missing
Surprises might pop up when (if) you decide to dismount the barrel. Often you don't see any proof marks showing off, while smiths fancy punctioning their symbols underneath the barrel.
Hope you don't mind, i'm checking a couple sources, to hear their opinnion.
A sus ordenes.
Fernando
celtan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st October 2008, 10:54 PM   #17
Atlantia
Member
 
Atlantia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Sharp end
Posts: 2,928
Default

There might be identifiable marks on the underside of that barrel Manuel ;-)
Atlantia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st October 2008, 11:04 PM   #18
fernando
(deceased)
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by celtan
Actually, I envy you the availability of Fer as your potential nom-de-guerre.

In pre-roman Galicia, Fer meant Fire. In post-Roman Galicia, it meant Iron. That's the base for the Her-nandez/ Fer-nandez last name. Just as the Her-rrero / Ferrero (The [H] was pronounced lat. [F]/eng. [PH]). In pre-roman Galicia, Iron wss Ir/Er, the basis for Iron and Ehre...

So Fer-nando would mean Fire / Iron something or other...

Have to Love phylology....

: )
Phylo what? I want to be one, too
Yeah, we actually write and say Ferro and Ferreiro over here .
But i don't know why, when you call me Fer, i thaught you wanted to sound English

Fernando
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th October 2008, 04:52 PM   #19
celtan
Member
 
celtan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: PR, USA
Posts: 679
Default

Oh No! That version would be "Ferd", and I'm sorry to say, it would sound nerdish, and Ferdie would be even worse.Don't take my word for it, just ask some of the local posters who hight from the misty isles...


Now that I think about it, that's how the galegos refer to Britain, or was it Ireland?. Misty isles. Is it the same everywhere else?

Fer
, OTOH, sounds kinda cool. A suitable name even for "World of Warcraft".

: )

Myself, I hate to be called Manny. Too culturally hybrid.

Toots!

Manuel / Manolo


Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Phylo what? I want to be one, too
Yeah, we actually write and say Ferro and Ferreiro over here .
But i don't know why, when you call me Fer, i thaught you wanted to sound English

Fernando
celtan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th October 2008, 05:03 PM   #20
celtan
Member
 
celtan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: PR, USA
Posts: 679
Default

Similar blunderbusses found on the net
Attached Images
      
celtan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th October 2008, 05:12 PM   #21
celtan
Member
 
celtan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: PR, USA
Posts: 679
Default

As mine was originally found, the other side was utterly covered with a thick mushy whitish fungi coat...quite fetching!

celtan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th October 2008, 06:01 AM   #22
M ELEY
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NC, U.S.A.
Posts: 2,089
Default My 2 cents...

Saw this piece awhile back and wanted to comment...

I was thinking along the same track as Gene/Atlantia here. A blunderbuss in the British fashion with decorative markings resembling that seen on E. Indian weapons. Let's consider just a few points...

Blunderbuss in most countries were MOSTLY used for guarding stage coaches, as "wall guns" on forts (usually mounted as swivel) or as boarding pieces on ships.

The brass pieces very typically (but not always, of course) were used as maritime arms because they retarded the rust effects of the sea air.

It does appear of the British pattern and the Brits certainly were in India at the time.

Although the designs could be from a number of ethnographic locations, with the evidence above, India should definitely be considered (and likewise, I don't believe these designs look European in the least).

There are no markings for the EIC/East India Company, because this could possibly be a "private purchase" boarding/defence gun. Keep in mind that far more ships that carried boarding axes, cutlass, pikes, etc, were either privateer vessels or merchant-type vessels with weapons for defence against boarding than there were naval/government-marked pieces.

That being said, without some provenance, marking, ship name, owner name or rack number (sometimes found on maritime pieces), this is all just speculation, but a possibility. I have seen some impressive boarding axes from India of the early 19th century which mimic nicely both the British axe and French 'hache de bord' pattern of 1830. Most are completely unmarked, but some have floral designs of a similar pattern to the one on this piece. (One particular example was an impressive combination weapon of flintlock/boarding axe).

Very nice piece!
M ELEY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th October 2008, 10:38 PM   #23
celtan
Member
 
celtan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: PR, USA
Posts: 679
Default

Thanks M,

I will dismount the BB upon my return from the "Battle Of The Hook", and will post pics of the innards as soon as feasible.
Best, and thanks again for your input.

M
celtan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th October 2008, 05:11 AM   #24
Bill M
Member
 
Bill M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: USA Georgia
Posts: 1,599
Default

Have you compared the stock with the American Revolutionary war pieces, like the Brown Bess?
Bill M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th October 2008, 08:06 PM   #25
celtan
Member
 
celtan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: PR, USA
Posts: 679
Default

Hi Fernando,


Seems I survived "The Battle Of The Hook" at Gloucester, now I feel like I'm coated in burnt BP...

: )

Just replaced the broken camera, I hope these new macros of the disassembled lock and barrel end better focused than the previous.

I sold my India Pattern Bessie a couple weeks ago. The similarities go well beyond the shape of the stock. The Lock is virtually identical (both sides). The trigger mount is different though, but similar in its design.

Check the follwing images.

Best

M
















Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill M
arsh
Have you compared the stock with the American Revolutionary war pieces, like the Brown Bess?
celtan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th October 2008, 08:06 PM   #26
celtan
Member
 
celtan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: PR, USA
Posts: 679
Default

Hi Eley,

One thing that makes me doubt Indian provenance is it's a flintlock, and the Raj began in the mid 19th C., welll after flintlocks were obsolete.

That is, unless the brits were providing the sepoys with slightly obsolete weaponry, in case of a potential insurrection...

Regards

M


More photos















celtan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th October 2008, 09:10 PM   #27
fernando
(deceased)
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
Default

Ai Ai Ai Manolo, that breech plug

A screw instead of a plug?

Do you trust it ?

Here are some plugs.

Fernando

.
Attached Images
  

Last edited by fernando; 25th October 2008 at 10:11 PM.
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th October 2008, 10:03 PM   #28
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,940
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by celtan
Actually, I envy you the availability of Fer as your potential nom-de-guerre.

In pre-roman Galicia, Fer meant Fire. In post-Roman Galicia, it meant Iron. That's the base for the Her-nandez/ Fer-nandez last name. Just as the Her-rrero / Ferrero (The [H] was pronounced lat. [F]/eng. [PH]). In pre-roman Galicia, Iron wss Ir/Er, the basis for Iron and Ehre...

So Fer-nando would mean Fire / Iron something or other...

Have to Love phylology....

: )


Well, if there was a phrase that ever described Fernando...it would be fire+iron.......not blacksmith, but hot metal.....for the outstanding weapons he has collected, keeps finding, and shares openly here!!!

I have learned more from him on the importance of the Portuguese in history in the time I've known him than in all the years I've studied weapons!

Thanks Fernando,
All the best,
Jim
Jim McDougall is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 25th October 2008, 10:18 PM   #29
fernando
(deceased)
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Well, if there was a phrase that ever described Fernando...it would be fire+iron.......not blacksmith, but hot metal.....for the outstanding weapons he has collected, keeps finding, and shares openly here!!!

I have learned more from him on the importance of the Portuguese in history in the time I've known him than in all the years I've studied weapons!

Thanks Fernando,
All the best,
Jim
Whhhhhat ?

Don't pay any notice to what Jim is saying, people
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th October 2008, 10:19 PM   #30
celtan
Member
 
celtan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: PR, USA
Posts: 679
Question

Frankly, no. And the end shape of the flint holding screw is flat, instead of pointed. And the finish underneath the barrel's tang and the barrel don't seem well done. Add to that the total lack of markings and we get a confusing picture. Why?

This gun has seen action, there are multiple flint cuts in the side of the barrel, as well as burnt marks around the priming channel/ear and the cazoleta/flash pan has that unmistaken sign of having been flash-burnt repeatedly. Obviously, it was made to be used, not to be sold to unwary tourists. It's functional.


Kahnjar's theory looks more plausible now...

What do you make of it all? Fake, copy, field repair? Besides the barrel, most of the gun feels legit.




Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Ai Ai Ai Manolo, that breech plug

A screw instead of a plug?

Do you trust it ?

Here are some plugs.

Fernando

.
celtan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:22 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.