Blunderbuss

[celtan]

Hi Guys,

My first posting

ID? Let's see whether we agree...

[Rick]

Welcome celtan .
Things are a bit slow on the weekends around here .

Glad to have you onboard .

[celtan]

Thank you kindly, Rick

This forum has an incredible potential. I checked the nature of the postings, and there seems to be a lot of goodwill among the participants, and a willingness to share knowledge with no strings attached.

Glad to be aboard, I intend to invite over some of my friends who share our interest in weapons collecting.

Best

Manuel Luis Iravedra

BTW: I sent you an attachment with my avatar, already prepared, if you can help me actualize same, I'd very much appreciate it.

[FenrisWolf]

Dang! I hope you get answers on this piece, as I have a similar barrel and fragmentary furniture (stock is cracked and missing the lock and all fittings except buttplate) that I want to restore with modern furniture. Mine came from England and the opening in the stock fits the Tower lock pattern, but beyond that I know little about the piece.

[fernando]

Yes, it smells British. However British firearms practically allways bear proofmarks.
But i am far from being an expert and i am not at home, to consult my (insifnificant) library. Can only check it next week.
Meanwhile, can't you get brighter pictures of the barrel breech ... and a close up of the lock ? No Tower mark on the lock plate behind the cock, or a crown in front of it ?
Case not yet closed.
Fernando

[celtan]

I don't think it's a brit. Their BBs are longer in barrel. The shape of the stock suggests to me its Belgian, French, or Spanish. The a la mode lock was also used in Spain, as frequently as the Miguelete, or more. The brass barrel suggests a Naval weapon, a boarding gun. There's also the fact that I got it with the miguelete pistol shown in another post, and both their chargers/rods are virtually identical...

more pics AR

[celtan]

Hi Guys,

I was reading yesterday the book of "Small arms of the Spanish Treasure Fleets" and it states that the Spanish never made Blunderbusses in Brass. So either they are wrong, or this one is either English, Belgian or French...

Toots

Manolo

[Ed]

Dunno. The proportions look off for a Brit weapon. Also, the one thing the Brits do do is make sure things are marked.

[celtan]

I agree Ed.

There's a shield with four chambers mark right atop the brass barrel, but nothing much can be made out of it.

What do you think, Fer, ¿portugués?

Is Matchlock around? Michael seems to be the guy to ask.

Manuel

Originally Posted by Ed

Dunno. The proportions look off for a Brit weapon. Also, the one thing the Brits do do is make sure things are marked.

[Atlantia]

Hi all!
Back again :-)
Could it be an east India Co piece?
Its a nice 'stubby' little beast!

Have you taken it to bits to search for hidden markings?

Regards
Gene

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Hi all!
Back again :-)
Could it be an east India Co piece?
Its a nice 'stubby' little beast!

Have you taken it to bits to search for hidden markings?

Regards
Gene

Unlikely to be East India Co unless stamped with their mark. To me the stock LOOKS British, but the barrel looks more Turkish???? There is a thing called a KNEE PISTOL used from horseback, and resembling a short Blunderbus which was a Turkish weapon. Maybe this is one?? OR..............
Is the stock British, and had an eastern barrel added at some later stage?
The plot thickens!
Regards Stuart

[celtan]

Not Turkish, the stock is all wrong for them. And they are characteristically more decorated. Of course, that applies to the ones I have seen so far.

Perhaps there were exceptions, but this one doesn't feel Turkish at all...

I read somewhere that europeans used brass blunderbusses, often at sea. They could only load lead shot, since anything else (as the stories went about stones, bolts, etc...) would destroy the softer barrel. Another advantage the significantly costlier barrels had was is that they didn't rust, and when they exploded from overuse or overload, they usually only deformed or split.

OTOH, overstressed iron barrels would explode like a grenade

And no, I haven't yet dismounted the lock. Will soon do.

Toots

: )

M

[kahnjar1]

I agree that this is not Turkish, but my suggestion was that POSSIBLY a British stock had been (re)mated with an eastern barrel, thereby creating a "kneepistol"
Regards S

[fernando]

Originally Posted by celtan

... What do you think, Fer, ¿portugués? ...

You almost made me a name ... Fertuguês ( Fertuguese) .
I don't know. When i came back home, the other day, i thaught i would locate something of the kind in my ( hoping to be) library but, instead, i only spotted a couple specimens with a much more moderate barrel. This one of yours has quite a trumpet one, half way to a grenade thrower ... pass the exageration .
Yeah, the stock looks British, but could also only be 'a la British', made anywhere else. Perhaps we could say the same about the lock ?.
Why couldn't this be a Belgium setup ... or even a Turkish cocktail, as sugested by Stu, what do i know?
French not likely ... again marks and smith name missing
Surprises might pop up when (if) you decide to dismount the barrel. Often you don't see any proof marks showing off, while smiths fancy punctioning their symbols underneath the barrel.
Hope you don't mind, i'm checking a couple sources, to hear their opinnion.
A sus ordenes.
Fernando

[celtan]

I saw a picture of one just like mine in a local National Parks Services Library's book, IDed as european. They wouldn't allow me photocopying the page, arguing potential copyright infringement issues. I explained to them it didn't apply for this case, but apparently they don't know the applying laws, and don't care to learn them either...

I have seen several spanish blunderbusses of identical design, but in iron. In fact, the stock design is identical to my flintlock fusil Modelo 1792. That's the reason I suspect it's either Belgian or French. Although the four chambered shield atop the barrel is very similar to that of Spain, with a Crown sitting on top...

[celtan]

Actually, I envy you the availability of Fer as your potential nom-de-guerre.

In pre-roman Galicia, Fer meant Fire. In post-Roman Galicia, it meant Iron. That's the base for the Her-nandez/ Fer-nandez last name. Just as the Her-rrero / Ferrero (The [H] was pronounced lat. [F]/eng. [PH]). In pre-roman Galicia, Iron wss Ir/Er, the basis for Iron and Ehre...

So Fer-nando would mean Fire / Iron something or other...

Have to Love phylology....

: )

Originally Posted by fernando

You almost made me a name ... Fertuguês ( Fertuguese) .
I don't know. When i came back home, the other day, i thaught i would locate something of the kind in my ( hoping to be) library but, instead, i only spotted a couple specimens with a much more moderate barrel. This one of yours has quite a trumpet one, half way to a grenade thrower ... pass the exageration .
Yeah, the stock looks British, but could also only be 'a la British', made anywhere else. Perhaps we could say the same about the lock ?.
Why couldn't this be a Belgium setup ... or even a Turkish cocktail, as sugested by Stu, what do i know?
French not likely ... again marks and smith name missing
Surprises might pop up when (if) you decide to dismount the barrel. Often you don't see any proof marks showing off, while smiths fancy punctioning their symbols underneath the barrel.
Hope you don't mind, i'm checking a couple sources, to hear their opinnion.
A sus ordenes.
Fernando

[Atlantia]

There might be identifiable marks on the underside of that barrel Manuel ;-)

[fernando]

Originally Posted by celtan

Actually, I envy you the availability of Fer as your potential nom-de-guerre.

In pre-roman Galicia, Fer meant Fire. In post-Roman Galicia, it meant Iron. That's the base for the Her-nandez/ Fer-nandez last name. Just as the Her-rrero / Ferrero (The [H] was pronounced lat. [F]/eng. [PH]). In pre-roman Galicia, Iron wss Ir/Er, the basis for Iron and Ehre...

So Fer-nando would mean Fire / Iron something or other...

Have to Love phylology....

: )

Phylo what? I want to be one, too
Yeah, we actually write and say Ferro and Ferreiro over here .
But i don't know why, when you call me Fer, i thaught you wanted to sound English

Fernando

[celtan]

Oh No! That version would be "Ferd", and I'm sorry to say, it would sound nerdish, and Ferdie would be even worse.Don't take my word for it, just ask some of the local posters who hight from the misty isles...


Now that I think about it, that's how the galegos refer to Britain, or was it Ireland?. Misty isles. Is it the same everywhere else?

Fer, OTOH, sounds kinda cool. A suitable name even for "World of Warcraft".

: )

Myself, I hate to be called Manny. Too culturally hybrid.

Toots!

Manuel / Manolo

Originally Posted by fernando

Phylo what? I want to be one, too
Yeah, we actually write and say Ferro and Ferreiro over here .
But i don't know why, when you call me Fer, i thaught you wanted to sound English

Fernando

[celtan]

Similar blunderbusses found on the net

[celtan]

As mine was originally found, the other side was utterly covered with a thick mushy whitish fungi coat...quite fetching!

[M ELEY]

Saw this piece awhile back and wanted to comment...

I was thinking along the same track as Gene/Atlantia here. A blunderbuss in the British fashion with decorative markings resembling that seen on E. Indian weapons. Let's consider just a few points...

Blunderbuss in most countries were MOSTLY used for guarding stage coaches, as "wall guns" on forts (usually mounted as swivel) or as boarding pieces on ships.

The brass pieces very typically (but not always, of course) were used as maritime arms because they retarded the rust effects of the sea air.

It does appear of the British pattern and the Brits certainly were in India at the time.

Although the designs could be from a number of ethnographic locations, with the evidence above, India should definitely be considered (and likewise, I don't believe these designs look European in the least).

There are no markings for the EIC/East India Company, because this could possibly be a "private purchase" boarding/defence gun. Keep in mind that far more ships that carried boarding axes, cutlass, pikes, etc, were either privateer vessels or merchant-type vessels with weapons for defence against boarding than there were naval/government-marked pieces.

That being said, without some provenance, marking, ship name, owner name or rack number (sometimes found on maritime pieces), this is all just speculation, but a possibility. I have seen some impressive boarding axes from India of the early 19th century which mimic nicely both the British axe and French 'hache de bord' pattern of 1830. Most are completely unmarked, but some have floral designs of a similar pattern to the one on this piece. (One particular example was an impressive combination weapon of flintlock/boarding axe).

Very nice piece!

[celtan]

Thanks M,

I will dismount the BB upon my return from the "Battle Of The Hook", and will post pics of the innards as soon as feasible.
Best, and thanks again for your input.

M

[Bill M]

Have you compared the stock with the American Revolutionary war pieces, like the Brown Bess?

[celtan]

Hi Fernando,


Seems I survived "The Battle Of The Hook" at Gloucester, now I feel like I'm coated in burnt BP...

: )

Just replaced the broken camera, I hope these new macros of the disassembled lock and barrel end better focused than the previous.

I sold my India Pattern Bessie a couple weeks ago. The similarities go well beyond the shape of the stock. The Lock is virtually identical (both sides). The trigger mount is different though, but similar in its design.

Check the follwing images.

Best

M

Originally Posted by Bill M
arsh

Have you compared the stock with the American Revolutionary war pieces, like the Brown Bess?

[celtan]

Hi Eley,

One thing that makes me doubt Indian provenance is it's a flintlock, and the Raj began in the mid 19th C., welll after flintlocks were obsolete.

That is, unless the brits were providing the sepoys with slightly obsolete weaponry, in case of a potential insurrection...

Regards

M


More photos

[fernando]

Ai Ai Ai Manolo, that breech plug

A screw instead of a plug?

Do you trust it ?

Here are some plugs.

Fernando

.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by celtan

Actually, I envy you the availability of Fer as your potential nom-de-guerre.

In pre-roman Galicia, Fer meant Fire. In post-Roman Galicia, it meant Iron. That's the base for the Her-nandez/ Fer-nandez last name. Just as the Her-rrero / Ferrero (The [H] was pronounced lat. [F]/eng. [PH]). In pre-roman Galicia, Iron wss Ir/Er, the basis for Iron and Ehre...

So Fer-nando would mean Fire / Iron something or other...

Have to Love phylology....

: )

Well, if there was a phrase that ever described Fernando...it would be fire+iron.......not blacksmith, but hot metal.....for the outstanding weapons he has collected, keeps finding, and shares openly here!!!

I have learned more from him on the importance of the Portuguese in history in the time I've known him than in all the years I've studied weapons!

Thanks Fernando,
All the best,
Jim

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Well, if there was a phrase that ever described Fernando...it would be fire+iron.......not blacksmith, but hot metal.....for the outstanding weapons he has collected, keeps finding, and shares openly here!!!

I have learned more from him on the importance of the Portuguese in history in the time I've known him than in all the years I've studied weapons!

Thanks Fernando,
All the best,
Jim

Whhhhhat ?

Don't pay any notice to what Jim is saying, people

[celtan]

Frankly, no. And the end shape of the flint holding screw is flat, instead of pointed. And the finish underneath the barrel's tang and the barrel don't seem well done. Add to that the total lack of markings and we get a confusing picture. Why?

This gun has seen action, there are multiple flint cuts in the side of the barrel, as well as burnt marks around the priming channel/ear and the cazoleta/flash pan has that unmistaken sign of having been flash-burnt repeatedly. Obviously, it was made to be used, not to be sold to unwary tourists. It's functional.


Kahnjar's theory looks more plausible now...

What do you make of it all? Fake, copy, field repair? Besides the barrel, most of the gun feels legit.

Originally Posted by fernando

Ai Ai Ai Manolo, that breech plug

A screw instead of a plug?

Do you trust it ?

Here are some plugs.

Fernando

.