Bali togogan (figural) hilts

[lemmythesmith]

Hi everyone, I recently purchased the new keris book by Jean Greffioz and I'm interested in finding out more about the Balinese "togogan" or figural hilts, the hilt in the shape of a ram or goat headed demon I found paticularly interesting-research online indicates he might be an incarnation of Barong. Does anybody have hilts/pictures they would be willing to share of the less common togogan types?

[David]

Here's a link to what comes up in a search for "Bali hilts".
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/search...earchid=190327
I am sure you will fing many of the togonan variety in these 3 pages of threads.

[Gavin Nugent]

I clicked on the link and it says no matches?

Gav

[David]

hmm...they were there right after my posting.
Well, just put "Bali hilt" into the search and you will get the same list i did originally. The search feature of this forum is an under used treasure trove of information.

[Battara]

Don't know if this helps but here is the ivory hilt of my one and only Bali keris - the form is Ravana from the Ramayana (I did the gold work).

[A. G. Maisey]

Things are pretty quiet here in the Warung lately, so I thought I'd try to start a new game:-

Name the Togog:-

[David]

O.K. i'll play just to show off my ignorance.
Top left looks like Ganesha to me and the top right could be Hanuman (i can't see if he has a tail or not.
Bottom left looks like what i believe is often called Bayu. The bottom right i am not sure. It looks like it has fangs so i am guessing it is a demon of some sort.
Next.....?

[A. G. Maisey]

Yep, Ganesha is pretty recognisable.

Here's a couple more pics of Hanuman.

As for our other two little mates, I'm inclined to wait a while and see if anybody else has some opinions.

[David]

hmmm....well 2 out of 4 ain't bad.
Love the Hanuman BTW.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yep, H.A. Numan is a bit nice. Had a lot of these over the years, but this fellow is probably the nicest. Material is buffalo horn.

[brekele]

The Hilt #3 it seem Betare Guru in my opinion.

[BluErf]

Could hilt number 4 be.... Ravana? The headdress is a representation of the other 9 heads?

Btw, there's this other hilt which I've seen in recent times - that of a long-bearded old man. I don't have pics, but does any one know what that hilt represents?

[Rick]

Originally Posted by BluErf

Could hilt number 4 be.... Ravana? The headdress is a representation of the other 9 heads?

Btw, there's this other hilt which I've seen in recent times - that of a long-bearded old man. I don't have pics, but does any one know what that hilt represents?

Could this be a Maduran interpretation of the hilt form you mention Kai Wee ?

[Battara]

If I am counting right, I think #4 is Bayu. The post after that is Hanuman.

[David]

Originally Posted by Battara

If I am counting right, I think #4 is Bayu. The post after that is Hanuman.

hmmm...well, interestingly enough their positions have moved since i first looked at them. Might be because i am on a different computer right now. Anyway Jose, anyway you can be more specific about which one you mean?

[A. G. Maisey]

Let's clarify things a bit.

I failed to number these pics when I put them up.

Sorry.

Let's make Ganesha # 1 and the then go clockwise:- Hanuman # 2, -----, -----.

Kai Wee, what is origin and period of this long bearded man handle?

[VVV]

Maybe Kai-Wee's long-bearded old (Chinese?) man is this hilt?
It looks like he is holding a vajra.

Michael

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Let's clarify things a bit.

I failed to number these pics when I put them up.

Sorry.

Let's make Ganesha # 1 and the then go clockwise:- Hanuman # 2, -----, -----

Sorry Alan, that still doesn't work. Depending on how big i open up my screen the hilts change position. I can get 2 on top and 2 on bottom or 3 on top and 1 on bottom (in these 2 variations the last 2 hilts switch positions) My screen at work is very larger and i can even get them to go straight across in one row when opened all the way.
One of these last 2 is golder (in the photo) and has mostly rubies (lets call this one "ruby"). The other has better detail and about half sapphire and half rubies (let's call this one "sapphire").

[David]

Originally Posted by VVV

It looks like he is holding a vajra.

Michael, that's an awesome hilt. I think that might be a bell with the vajra. It looks like a bell coming down from his hand. These are often used in conjunction with each other.

[VVV]

David,

That seems probable as it's held in the left hand. Left and the bell represents the female principle in Tantric Buddhism/Vajrayana. Right hand and the vajra the male principle. Unfortunately the right hand is missing on this hilt.

Michael

[BluErf]

Originally Posted by VVV

Maybe Kai-Wee's long-bearded old (Chinese?) man is this hilt?
It looks like he is holding a vajra.

Michael

Bingo! This is the one I'm referring to. Thanks Michael.

[Battara]

Ok the gold and ruby hilt I think is Bayu (carring a "fan") and the black and silver one I think is Hanuman....

[David]

Originally Posted by Battara

Ok the gold and ruby hilt I think is Bayu (carring a "fan") and the black and silver one I think is Hanuman....

Thanks for clarifying Jose. The reason why i do not believe that "ruby" is Bayu is because this hilt seems to have fangs implying that it is of a demonic nature. I might be mistaken, but i do not think that Bayu would have fangs.
The sapphire & ruby one also carries the fan (or is it a mirror) and i thought that could be Bayu. It seems to be a popular ID for this style of hilt, but it could be a misinterpretation.

[Jussi M.]

I have no clue what I am looking at but I do know I like what I see

[VVV]

According to Kerner (pict 142-143 in the A4 book) the hilt I showed above is Agastya. In the, missing, right hand he holds a vessel with holy water and in the left a bell according to Kerner.
Agastya was a Shaiva-hermit with his own cult. He has a statue in for instance the Candi Singhasari, next to Durga, and probably represents both Shiva and a royal ancestor in a nocturnal magic ancestor cult.

Michael

[A. G. Maisey]

Doubly sorry.

I didn't know that the arrangement of pics varied with the screen, rather than the source. I'll do better next time.

I think a lot of people might have heard of Bayu. Does anybody know the mainstream name of Bayu?

Anybody know if he's got any relatives shown in this thread?

Then we might have a pic of Agastya. Anybody know how Agastya might be associated with with some of the other beings shown here?

[BluErf]

Originally Posted by VVV

In the, missing, right hand he holds a vessel with holy water and in the left a bell according to Kerner.
l

The left hand looks like it is holding a vajra. I don't know.

[David]

Originally Posted by BluErf

The left hand looks like it is holding a vajra. I don't know.

Well, with my own bell and vajre set the top of the bell handle has a vajre termination like this set.

[A. G. Maisey]

The togog that Michael has presented to us, and which has been tentatively identified as Agastya is causing me to think a little.

Firstly, nobody I know in Bali has identified this figure, when it appears as a hilt motif, as Agastya, it is usually identified as a priest ( pedanda), a generic identification, rather than a specific one.

Secondly the attributes of Agastya are the water jar and the trisula, so to see him with a bell and something else does not really fit.

Thirdly, in Jawa/Bali culture, Agastya has become Bhatara Guru, now, there is some confusion as to exactly who Bhatara Guru is in the Jawa/Bali pantheon. The mainstream of thought seems to equate him to Agastya, but others would have him as a form of Siwa. In some old texts, Bhatara Guru is used to refer to the Supreme Being, however, in Jawanese Siwaitic tradition Bhatara Guru was the first to introduce the people of Jawa to Siwa.

Bhatara Guru is usually depicted as a pot bellied man with a beard and a calm face.

I feel that we need to question whether this figure that Michael has presented to us can be identified as Agastya or Bhatara Guru. I would feel more comfortable with giving just the generic identification that Balinese people usually give.

[VVV]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The togog that Michael has presented to us, and which has been tentatively identified as Agastya is causing me to think a little.

Thanks for your comments. I haven't reflected so much on Agastya before on Java except that I have noticed that he in some temples seems to represent Bhatara Guru (= both Shiva and someone higher than Shiva).

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Firstly, nobody I know in Bali has identified this figure, when it appears as a hilt motif, as Agastya, it is usually identified as a priest ( pedanda), a generic identification, rather than a specific one.

Actually I haven't noticed earlier, before Kai Wee asked about it, that Kerner so clearly identified this hilt as Agastya. Maybe an example of interpretating something out of the culture?
Or maybe he knows something more about this hilt that isn't in his book?

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Secondly the attributes of Agastya are the water jar and the trisula, so to see him with a bell and something else does not really fit.

If it's a vajra it could maybe fit with Shiva as the vajra sometimes also represents Shiva (not only Indra). BUT Agastya traditionally holds the vessel with water in his left (!), not his right hand.

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Thirdly, in Jawa/Bali culture, Agastya has become Bhatara Guru, now, there is some confusion as to exactly who Bhatara Guru is in the Jawa/Bali pantheon. The mainstream of thought seems to equate him to Agastya, but others would have him as a form of Siwa. In some old texts, Bhatara Guru is used to refer to the Supreme Being, however, in Jawanese Siwaitic tradition Bhatara Guru was the first to introduce the people of Jawa to Siwa.

Bhatara Guru is usually depicted as a pot bellied man with a beard and a calm face.

Santoso, in Sutasoma: A Study in Javanese Wajrayana, explains Bhatara Guru as both Shiva, but in a more mighty position than in India, as well as a pre-Hindu high god (who also was titled the Lord of the Mountain). Below Bhatara Guru are his sons Brahma, Vishnu and Ishwara. Ishwara is another name for Shiva. According to Santoso this son is closer to the Indian Shiva in power than Bhatara Guru.

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I feel that we need to question whether this figure that Michael has presented to us can be identified as Agastya or Bhatara Guru. I would feel more comfortable with giving just the generic identification that Balinese people usually give.

Until we find out if Kerner has some additional reasons for naming it Agastya I agree. Both based on the ascetics vessel held in the wrong hand and I also miss the characteristic pot-belly and his dwarfish stature.

Michael

PS Someone who on Jawa however often is shown with a vajra, as well sharing temples with Shiva, is the Bodhisatva Akshobya.
Alan, how well known was/is he on Bali?
(Just another wild idea from someone outside the culture)